Time for another Monday critique session. Are they helpful? I hope they are.
Here’s how this works:
Today? We’re gonna hash out characters. Do you have a character in your WIP (work in progress) that’s just not working? Or a character that you love but others are having problems connecting to? Whatever the reason, here’s a good place to dissect some characters.
Way this works is: in the comment section, give us ~100 words (keep it tidy) about a character you want critiqued. Tell us about that character — wants, fears, the intended arc for that character, etc. — and then some folks can critique that character or ask some questions.
Then the dissection can begin.
But, of course, the rule always applies:
If you put your character out there to be dissected —
You must also dissect someone else’s character.
Quid pro quo and all that.
Be constructive instead of destructive.
Don’t be jerks.
Be awesome instead.
Get to critiquing.
joycronje says:
Are there really no comments yet? *confused*
Alright, I will start if I must. Hmmm…So this character is the protagonist of the first story I’ve ever written (still a w.i.p). The book is inspired by Joe Abercrombie and Mark Lawrence’s work: grey characters, and things not being what they seem. The character I’m strugging with:-
Female character, struggling with disassociation and terrible fears, enamored with folklore, magic, and the wonders of things beyond the natural. Of course the character, at first, comes across as weak, unable to make strong choices, afraid of much, lost in her thoughts. Being a female character readers think that’s it, but the point of the story is for her to discover her past, face her fears, for her personality to be “knit together” as she travels with a band of rogues (unwillingly at first).
No it’s not a coming of age book, but the reasons for her dissasociative behaviour, strange dreams, and deep fears stem from a very traumatic event when she was very young, which of course she can’t recall until later in the book during another very specific event, after which she must face down a terrible evil.
genre: grim, dark fantasy
Advice and comments welcome. I guess I’ll stick around till someone else comments to leave my feedback on someone else’s character.
June 8, 2015 — 7:48 AM
elctrcrngr says:
What are your concerns with this character? Where are you having problems? She sounds complex and interesting.
June 8, 2015 — 8:14 AM
joycronje says:
I’d say my concern is that at first she seems like a passive character, and people don’t tend to like that, especially as she is a female protagonist. She really seems erm… whimsical and shallow, I suppose, and unable to make decisions for herself. I want to hook readers and still have her grow into this aspect. Finding it tricky…
June 8, 2015 — 8:26 AM
elctrcrngr says:
Yeah, hooks are tricky. I think whimsical is OK, just don’t make her whiny, especially if she is travelling with people she has just met. Although she is “weak, unable to make strong choices”, you may include something early that shows she has the ‘potential’ for growth and self-improvement, maybe standing up to one of the lower ranking rogues. Have her do something out of character, to show what she can become
June 8, 2015 — 8:42 AM
joycronje says:
great suggestion. Now how to apply it *goes to the drawing board*
June 8, 2015 — 8:52 AM
Anthony says:
This was going to be my exact advice. Hint at the strength she could possess. It doesn’t have to be huge, but something that shows while she may seem weak there is an iron core in her somewhere (this also fits in with the Abercrombie theme.) Everyone has limits and walls. Have hers be a bit closer to the surface than others might expect.
It can also help to have her be not so unwilling to go with the rogues. Maybe she is being forced in some ways, but maybe, internally, she is also willing to go for reasons.
Even if she is unsure, have her want something enough to pursue it – even if just by taking advantage of the current opportunity. And remember that you need to make the pay off work because you’re deliberately starting with an uphill climb.
June 8, 2015 — 9:38 AM
Wendy Christopher says:
Well… when it comes to appearing ‘strong’ or ‘weak’ it depends on what decisions she’s being asked to make. In the right context, NOT making a decision can be a stronger action than picking a direction purely to keep the peace with others. As long as you can show that her reasons for shying away from decisions come from her own, solid belief system (even if it’s not necessarily a logical one) I’m sure readers would root for her.
June 9, 2015 — 6:56 AM
joycronje says:
thank you. this may be where my root issue lies. I need to work out her belief system, even if it is one that will change as she grows, and make sure readers know it. Really appreciate the help. Got a lot of homework from this session 😛
June 9, 2015 — 7:57 AM
jimbotz says:
I think, while your character is no doubt a very interesting individual, your character MODEL may come off as a bit…cliche? The appearance of weakness and finding inner strength is widely used, so what makes your character different?
Something that keeps me hooked in a book is a character’s quirks, their eccentricities. Does she have a weird tick? Or a proclivity for dirty jokes? Laugh at inappropriate times or cry incontrolably? A strange collection? Make it something left field, as her curiousity for the fantastic is already part of the story and complexity is about anything but sameness. Just a thought.
June 9, 2015 — 4:45 PM
joycronje says:
thank you. I like that. She does have some quirkiness, but obvs couldn’t put it all in 100 words (I think I already went over :P) Thanks for commenting too. I need all this to improve.
June 10, 2015 — 2:29 AM
Ink Hopp says:
Since she is a passive character who struggles with making decisions, put her into situations where she is FORCED too. Maybe situations that go against her morals, or shoving her into her fears. Really all I am saying can be summed up to 2 words: TORTURE HER.
June 14, 2015 — 12:01 AM
joycronje says:
This, at least, I have done 😀 😀 Well, kind of, but I am busy with draft two, lots of rewriting, so I can amp up the torturous must-make-a-choice situations
June 15, 2015 — 12:56 PM
Ink Hopp says:
Coincidentally, I am on draft 2 as well. However, it sounds like you have got it a lot easier, haha. I’ve had to do major surgery on my first draft to the point it’s a new story. Also, a side note, I’m so interested into how the rogues will compliment your FMC’s personality, or how they will piss her off and put her into uncomfortable circumstances. This is a book I’d totally read, especially with a FMC that’s interested in magic and folklore.
June 15, 2015 — 3:35 PM
joycronje says:
@Ink Hopp that is cool. dw, mine needs a LOT of rewriting. Since I started I’ve learned so much a lot has to be changed! srsly. too much dilly dallying methinks. I’d love to beta read for you. fun fun. Much better than my day job 😛 And erm, my first draft is up on Wattpad. Well, most of it. You can have a go at reading it, but I think it sounds way more awesome as a summary than as a first draf. sigh. What’s your book about?
June 15, 2015 — 5:02 PM
Ink Hopp says:
Holy shit. Send me the link to this wonderful story? And, possibly, e-mail exchange?
Oh! So I am not alone, this is encouraging. I thought I was the only one ripping my baby first draft into pieces and taking out what is salvageable. We are such wonderful parents to our creations. Destroying them, torturing them. Haha. As for the summary of my book, A Dustland Fairytale. It goes a little something like this.
“A monarch’s daughter. Two banished heroes. Both pawns of war.
War: a massacre of Orphics. The sky has been dark ever since it began. And it is a certain fool’s wish for this story to have a happy ending. Out of all the possible worlds in the cosmos, Daphne Waltz shouldn’t have been at the battle lines. But, death changes things. All above the age of eighteen and able bodied must fight, including the daughter of a Monarch. The one who has never done anything remarkable, and can’t see how she ever will. This is her chance to fight and defend the ghost of her fairytales. But, her intents may be more malicious than meets the eye.
Swords and death, armor and artillery: the war will now be her job. Until it isn’t. Under the orders of her father, two banished heroes whisk her away to refuge. Away from danger, but also on the edge of it. For the banished hero’s are building an army out of wolves and dreams for who knows what. Caught in a game of cat and mouse with her assigned bodyguards, Daphne secretly seeks to avenge what she has lost in the war.
In exchange for help from the Head Monarch to seek out her revenge, Daphne will risk her life to spy for them from within the banished heroes legions. And she must decide for herself whether to be everything to those who need her most…or the one who turns them all to dust.”
June 15, 2015 — 5:09 PM
joycronje says:
link: http://www.wattpad.com/user/joycronje
draft name: stormchild – emeline and the forest mage
How about yours? hosting your first draft anywhere? Inbox me on wattpad and I’ll send my email address to you.
Ooh, and sounds like you’ve got some magic-y subplot stuff going there! I like.
June 15, 2015 — 5:45 PM
Ink Hopp says:
I will do that now ^^ I’ll respond properly on wattpad, so we don’t spam here.
June 15, 2015 — 5:51 PM
jrupp25 says:
I think I understand what you mean. How to hook the reader in the first 30 pages when your character starts from a passive place? Perhaps there is a way to focus first on her strengths (even though she may not perceive them as strengths). To show the best of who she is before her journey begins? Or see her through the eyes of another character who loves who she is? I think of Sam Tarly (Game of Thrones) weak and useless in the beginning but something about him made John Snow see value in him. Eventually, he kills a White Walker. Damn. I’m not helping at all.
June 8, 2015 — 8:47 AM
joycronje says:
Yes, precisely. *nods, tears in eyes*
And that is such a good example. I may glean from Jon and Sam’s relationship to work at my character. She does have someone like that, but not immediately…
aha! I have it!
*goes off to write stuff*
thanks 😀
June 8, 2015 — 8:55 AM
Cari Hislop says:
Speaking as one who has suffered from various crippling anxieties from a very young age, one can live in fear and be affected by it, yet still push through it and do what need’s to be done (every day) regardless of one’s inner terror (which may or may not be well founded). If I were you, I’d have a verbal conversation with your character (when there’s no one else around to hear you – and record it on your phone) and ask her how she’s affected by her fears (and let your subconscious reply out loud)…what do these fears do for her? How does she view her fears? Does she admit these fears or are they completely internal?
You can have a situation where the character is viewed by other characters as strong and courages…yet underneath she’s constantly terrified…the dichotomy of what other’s see and what the heroine feels could even be part of the tale…the healing and overcoming of her fears could be completely internal without many if any other characters realising the truth. She could even compensate for her fears by appearing overly courageous from the start (to the point of seeming foolishness) to hide her fear (if she is ashamed of her fears). If some early readers have found her weak, you might also look at the age of your character and ask yourself if her reactions are age appropriate. Maybe she’s acting younger than you have her written and that is throwing people off.
June 8, 2015 — 3:45 PM
joycronje says:
Hi, thank you so much for this, really makes me think. See, the whole idea of her character came about as an exploration of trauma that causes people to disassociate, or switch off, with certain triggers. Disassociation is like the start of split personalities. When someone dissasociates the possibility of them being totally unlike themselves until they “come back to themselves” is high and can develop into multiple personalities. It really intrigues me. Personally I had an issue where if a man got angry I totally switched off emotionally because of early childhood experiences, I suppose as a defense mechanism, but my experiences could be considered very mild compared with other peoples’ experiences with similar things. I wanted to explore the concept. A hero that is flawed, but I really like the idea of her putting on a brave face to hide her inner terror. That is realistic. I must include this. Thanks again. very awesome.
June 10, 2015 — 2:42 AM
elctrcrngr says:
Chiron is a young man who was orphaned as a child, when his environmental activist parents were assassinated by the polluting corporations they sought to reform or shut down. He is conflicted over his anger at their deaths. Angry at them for dying for a cause he sees as hopeless, angry at their killers for doing what he sees as using a bomb to kill a mosquito. He begins the story as cynical and self-serving, with an arc of growth to a place where he respects his parents and what they stood for, as well as growing in respect for himself. My concern is that so far, he is shaping up as horribly cliché.
June 8, 2015 — 8:10 AM
joycronje says:
Hi,
my critique. Hmmm… *scratches chin*
First off I’d say that being horribly cliché isn’t a problem, really, as long as you write the character well (and write well in general). After all, “There is nothing new under the sun” and all that.
The character seems to go from a bad place to a better place as a person, so my question to consider would be what other “bad stuff” happens closer to the end of the arc that he must deal with? Otherwise his coming to terms with his parents’ death, etc. does seem idealistic (I recall here some or other thing Chuck said before about shit going wrong a lot). And what happens to force him to deal with his anger? Because change rarely comes without some external influence or grand-scale event.
I think things that will save your character from being cliché are the little details. He secretly blogs about pet shave-athons. He often obsesses over which flavor biscuit to purchase for his ailing great aunt. He argues with Anne every morning for five minutes about her choices in reading material in the lift. Not that I’m an expert, just thinking if I was to read your book, what would make me keep reading are the little things that make your character unique even though his challenges could be seen as cliché. I hope that’s even remotely useful 😛
June 8, 2015 — 8:24 AM
jrupp25 says:
This Chuck Wendig challenge is very difficult both for the poster and postee. But I’ll take a stab and hope something I write helps.
The arc you describe for Chiron doesn’t sound cliche (damn how do you get that accent thing). If he comes off that way to you or others check to make certain you’re not using cliche phrases in his dialogue. What are his flaws, fears, needs? What would he do if he won the lottery? What would he do if he found a wounded dog? What are his favorite jokes? If you are clear on these answers and Chiron’s reactions to everyday kind of stuff is all grounded in reality, then I think you can put him out there in a dystopian world of your creation and he will do epic things.
June 8, 2015 — 8:32 AM
joycronje says:
to get the accent click ALT and 1 3 0 (on pc). And I love your suggestions too.
June 8, 2015 — 8:39 AM
Jenni C says:
Reading comments and really interested in answer to this accent sign. I tried this and it didn’t work? Does it have to be on the number pad?
June 9, 2015 — 10:54 AM
elctrcrngr says:
I’m using Word 2010, and whenever I type a word that requires an accent mark, it autocorrects it in. I’m not sure if that’s a setting in the autocorrect menu, but I’m guessing it is.
June 9, 2015 — 3:09 PM
joycronje says:
Hi, if your NUMLOCK is on it won’t work. Also, this is for PC, not sure for MAC. I think for MAC it is “command-1-3-0”
June 10, 2015 — 2:50 AM
Wendy Christopher says:
There’s another, lazy person’s way of doing it (I’m looking at ME here.) If you’re using the Google Chrome browser with the spellchecking option on – or alternatively you type your post first into a Word document, and then copy and paste it in here – the wavy, naughty-nanny spellchecker line will come up under the word and then you can just right-click on it and pick the version with the accent over it.
Sometimes I try and eat chocolate while I do this, for maximum hedonism 😉
June 10, 2015 — 7:42 AM
todddillard says:
I think if the defining attribute of Chiron is his anger, you have to recognize how that anger takes shape, and how that shape gives agency to the plot. If Chiron is out to avenge his parents, that anger must butt heads with his apathy for their cause and his journey could be developing empathy for said cause. If that anger is bloated and made him listless, then maybe Chiron’s journey is one where he reforms his rage into something righteous.
I believe revenge stories can be cliched because they teeter on being so single-minded and one-dimensional. “I am angry at A for doing B so I will do C or die trying.” Maybe you’re worried about Chiron being cliched because the story of his anger is the one you want to tell, and not the story of corporate assassins and orphanhood.
Regardless, there’s too many cool things going on in your story for it to be cliched. Keep on keeping on!
June 8, 2015 — 9:34 AM
elctrcrngr says:
Wow, I feel like you’ve been reading my manuscript! Spooky. Thank you, I think you really nailed my problem down
June 8, 2015 — 3:28 PM
Cari Hislop says:
You might also ponder…who is Chiron underneath the cynicism and selfishness? People can change (sometimes drastically) yet we’re still the same at the center of our being. I hate those stories where the main characters at the end are almost unrecognisable from who they were at the beginning. That just isn’t realistic regardless of whether the character is becoming more evil or more good.
Maybe Chiron is just a very self-centred sort of person. Why is he cynical? Maybe he’s really intelligent and most of the world seem to be idiots (if so that isn’t going to change and he’s still going to be rude and abrupt – he’s not going to end up some sweet guy). It’s the core that dictates our choices and actions and develops our stories. Chiron could become more understanding of his parents choices…and forgive them for dying and leaving him alone…even let go of his rage…yet still find what they stood for as pointless and their deaths as pointless and be a complete self centred cynical jerk at the end…it would just depend on who the character really is and as todddillard pointed out, the focus of the story.
June 8, 2015 — 4:17 PM
elctrcrngr says:
Thank you, everyone. This is great stuff, always helps to get input from more than one set of eyes and brain cells
June 8, 2015 — 3:26 PM
elctrcrngr says:
I’ve posted the first chapter of this WIP on my site. If anyone has the time to read it, critiques and criticism would be most appreciated. It will give a better idea of what this character is about.
https://elctrcrngr.wordpress.com/2015/06/08/culture-crash/
June 8, 2015 — 5:14 PM
Wendy Christopher says:
Unless he’s talking like Bruce Willis in Die Hard and dressing like Jean-Claude Van-Damme in – well, pretty much anything – I doubt he’s as horribly clichéd as you’re imagining 😉 Just because he’s a recognisable ‘type’ doesn’t necessarily make him a STEREOTYPE – all of us are a ‘type’ of some kind or other (that’s why psychology exists, after all.)
Having said that… what is Chiron’s ultimate goal for most of the story? I’d argue that it’s NOT to resolve his issues with his parents – in fact, for most of the story he’d probably do his damnedest to disconnect from them entirely, and that making peace with those issues at the end is something that only happens when he STOPS fighting it. Which means he needs to be striving for something else before that happens – and usually the thing he THINKS he wants is the very opposite to the thing he NEEDS.
The rock-and-the-hard-place I’m seeing for you at the moment (although admittedly this is just from what you’ve written here, so there’s probably tons I don’t know) is that he’s angry with BOTH sides of the environmental argument, for entirely different reasons. Which leaves him… where, when it comes to picking a side? I don’t think he can just rebelliously stand for ‘neither of the above’ – however much anger he directs at them it’s still going to look like he’s ducking out of choosing a firm standpoint. Perhaps he needs some kind of clearly defined ‘third path’ that is in direct conflict with both of the other two, that he can both channel his passion into and use to hide from his deeper, emotional issues . Do you have that in your story already, and if not, perhaps there’s some way you could create one for him?
June 9, 2015 — 7:32 AM
elctrcrngr says:
Your correct in that he is angry with both sides of the argument. Since one choice is clearly worse than the other, he is eventually convinced to take up his parents mantle. His character arc revolves around the circumstances of the larger story convincing him to follow that path. Thanks for your suggestions, they are spot-on.
June 9, 2015 — 3:07 PM
Ed says:
I know this might sound a bit weird to start but stick with me. When scientist’s first had ideas about Black Holes they had a problem about how do you find something you can’t see. The answer, look for things that imply that something exists where you are looking even though you can’t see anything.
I’d say that if you are able too, maybe an approach of letting your other characters actions and thoughts help define or outline your main characters intentions. maybe by being able to see through their eyes you can show what your character is.
As she is with a band of rogues, maybe a scene or two showing how the group functions without her might also help define her. After all if she can’t find the answers she seeks and tell the reader, maybe your other characters can.
June 8, 2015 — 8:15 AM
Ed says:
I know this might sound a bit weird to start but stick with me. When scientist’s first had ideas about Black Holes they had a problem about how do you find something you can’t see. The answer, look for things that imply that something exists where you are looking even though you can’t see anything.
I’d say that if you are able too, maybe an approach of letting your other characters actions and thoughts help define or outline your main characters intentions. maybe by being able to see through their eyes you can show what your character is.
As she is with a band of rogues, maybe a scene or two showing how the group functions without her might also help define her. After all if she can’t find the answers she seeks and tell the reader, maybe your other characters can.
June 8, 2015 — 8:17 AM
mshatch says:
@ Joy
Does this character like herself?
What if anything would she change about her life?
Strongest/weakest character traits
How can the flip side of the strong points be weaknesses and vise versa?
I don’t have a character to offer up but I have tons more questions like these that help me figure out my characters/story.
June 8, 2015 — 8:21 AM
joycronje says:
@Ed
thanks, I love that idea. I’ve considered this before, so it’s a great suggestion.
@mshatch thanks also. I was unsure whether you were looking for answers or only suggesting things that can help improve the character, but here goes nonetheless 😛
1. character does not like herself, no, too insecure and fearful (at first)
2. she wants adventure, magic, anything besides her ordinary life.
3. strongest: stubborn, optimistic, full of dreams. weakest: fearful, naive, struggling with major internal conflict and dissasociative behaviour.
4. I suppose they already are kind of connected 🙂
thanks guys
June 8, 2015 — 8:34 AM
Terry says:
How does your character get to want adventure and a change of life for herself? Or more accurately how does she end up having adventures at all – what propels her forward into the plot if it isn’t her own decisiveness?? and could that event also illustrate depth of character she herself isn’t aware of??
June 8, 2015 — 8:55 AM
joycronje says:
ooh, well the inciting incident is fantastic, and not of her own choice also… but that is a good suggestion. I hadn’t considered how it might show her possible future strength, more focused on trying to accurately portray disassociation and her inner turmoil. Thank you for the suggestion 😀
June 8, 2015 — 9:00 AM
todddillard says:
Petr is a college-aged social-media savant living in a world where the number of followers you have determines your social standing, and people are punished by being turned into “ghosts” for months or a year–turned literally invisible, hated and hunted for sport. After he accidentally causes a car accident and a woman to die, he gets turned into a ghost himself, and he ends up meeting someone who has been permanently turned invisible and is on a mission to help other ghosts survive their sentences.
Petr is kind of a self-serving dick whose only skillsets become worthless once he’s thrown out into the urban wilds. His emotional journey is the attainment of empathy, embedded in the idea that even those we don’t “see” (literally or figuratively) are still people, and deserving of compassion/love/etc. Since he’s a jerkymcjerkface, and then goes on to be a bit of a whiner, I’m not sure what I can do to make him initially worth following. How would you make a hero out of someone so privileged and cruel?
June 8, 2015 — 9:26 AM
David says:
Hi Todd,
I’ve seen something similar done well in the recent Edge of Tomorrow. Tom Cruise plays a smarmy PR officer who gets thrown into the front lines. While he eventually evolves into an action hero, the reason we like watching him early on is because it’s fun to see him get humiliated over and over again trying to talk his way out of his predicament, and failing.
If your protagonist isn’t likeable, getting the reader to laugh at his early failures might keep her interested enough to get to later plot and character growth.
June 8, 2015 — 9:44 AM
todddillard says:
Hi David,
Thanks! Using comedy & monopolizing on Petr’s failures never even occurred to me, and it makes so much sense. Hrm… how shall I make him suffer…
T
June 8, 2015 — 9:48 AM
elctrcrngr says:
“How shall I make him suffer?” I think this is always a good question to ask in regard to protagonist. Sometimes we like our protags so much we forget that we must do bad things to them in our storyworlds. Or at least, I do
June 8, 2015 — 3:32 PM
Shay says:
Even the biggest jerk has redeeming qualities because they are human. There has to be someone or something in the beginning that he cares for or wants to even if it is the tiniest bit, even if he doesn’t show it to the world, you can show there is something inside of him that can give a spark of hope that he isn’t that bad, or is he? That is a good guessing game for the reader and is your ‘in’ to show a little bit deeper into his character before bringing down the jerkymcjerkface.
June 8, 2015 — 9:44 AM
mizchriz says:
Hi Todd,
I was going to agree with Shay. Giving your character something to care about (even if it’s their pet gerbil or a house plant named Kevin) with give your character the barest semblance of balance so that they’re still who they are, but gives them a redeeming quality we care about as readers. Also, this will create different trigger reactions in your character that would be different than your readers would expect, and would keep them interested. For example, if they expect your character to be aloof and snarky all the time, and then he’s suddenly upset because someone kicked over his aloe vera plant, it’s going to be a reaction the audience will want to know more about. It’d be good for character development, if you wanted to take that route, and would help expand your characters empathy. Basically, you can’t make something out of nothing, so there should be a tiny bit of heroism or empathy already in your character, no matter how tiny. Bonus points for that trait in unexpected place (re: Kevin the houseplant). I also liked David’s point, and agree that would be effective as well.
June 8, 2015 — 11:10 AM
sheltonkeysdunning says:
Social media savant who’s a jerkyjerkface? That doesn’t equate for me. A successful socialite, regardless of the media, tends to be charismatic. He isn’t going to be a jerk in his circle, to his power base. Might be a jerk to ghosts, but considering how punishing social media is to online errs, if he’s a jerk, to those in the “in crowd” he’s going to get ghosted long before he gets someone killed. A savant should know how to read a situation and spin to his favor…that doesn’t say jerk to me, that says politician.
He’s gotta be more like a politician, I think, if you’re going for successful socially driven self-serving jerkiness. There’s a line from the movie Hunt for Red October that goes something like “Look, I’m a businessman and a politician which means I’m a cheat and a liar, and when I’m not kissing babies, I’m stealing their lollipops. But. It also means I keep my options open.” that’s the sort of person I think your protag needs to be. I’m just talking personality and skill set here, I don’t mean career choice.
Does any of that make sense? I haven’t had my coffee yet.
For every protag there should be an equal and opposite antagonist. Maybe, instead of the “accident” being an “accident”, maybe a “friend” snares your protag, suckering him into making that fatal mistake in order to further his own agenda.. That way, your protag has a specific goal to chase. He thinks it’s revenge at first, but after a long while dealing with the ghosts, it because justice he wants instead.
You’ve got an intriguing idea. It’d be interesting to see how the ghost world works.
June 8, 2015 — 12:26 PM
todddillard says:
Hi Shelton,
Thanks! It’s an idea that’s been niggling at me for a year now–and I think the “ghost world” will be very fun to write once I figure out how to transition smoothly into Act 2. An actual antagonist has been eluding me–I’m almost writing this like a zombie novel, where the citizens hunting ghosts are the zombies, and the ghosts are the survivors in the apocalyptic world. But it’s interesting you mention political maneuverings… there’s something like that already that I could explore. Really appreciate your comments, and the comments from everyone above, and good ol’ Chuck buddy for getting this shindig together.
June 8, 2015 — 12:56 PM
Cari Hislop says:
I love the concept of your story particularly since I love a good anti-hero. People who don’t like anti-heroes may be turned off, but they’re not your readers so I’d ignore that voice in your head saying he’s a dick and write Petr exactly as he wants to be written.
If you haven’t done so already I recommend researching empathy. It’s quite a fascinating subject. None of us are born with empathy. It’s something we learn preferably as a toddler from our mother though we can learn it as an adult (though before one can learn it as an adult one has to realise one is missing it – a really good historical example of a man who never developed empathy was Louis XIV. He had no ability to empathise with any individual’s suffering to the point where he appears to be an unfeeling monster – only when France was suffering could he feel anything because He was France – if that makes sense).
Understanding how empathy develops (or not as the case may be) may help unfold your plot…and help Petr realistically become less cruel and selfish as he suffers (and shares suffering with others). The difficulty of developing empathy as an adult of course is that one has to learn to value something that intrinsically alien because one does not yet have or value it.
June 8, 2015 — 4:58 PM
Jordan says:
How do you empathize with Petr? What makes YOU like him as a character in the beginning? What draws you, as the author, to the character to want to see him change and grow?
Is it just to cause him pain and suffering? – Go with the fish out of water angle. He’s so enmeshed in the social-media online world that he can’t relate to people offline and has issues when met face to face with others.
Is it to see him change in Act 2 into a better, less self-serving person? – Give him a reason to want to change into that person, rather than pure brute force: the plant, the bird, the cat everyone’s talking about. Someone with an apartment full of houseplants and a parakeet has to have some sort of empathy for SOMETHING.
Think about what you love about the character, as writers there’s something we love about every piece of our mind we give breath to, and make that the reason for his rise to heroism.
June 8, 2015 — 9:19 PM
flickerjax says:
Shane, 21yo guy in 1982 Seattle, looking for work in the midst of economic depression. Grandparents who raised him recently dead, mother is emotionally abusive and psychically draining. Immersed in the rebellion of the punk scene and out as gay, though more as an eff you to society than an “out and proud” situation. Is skilled and smart but so disenfranchised that he can’t even see the value in those things, especially when there’s no work. His arc is about finding community, making your own family, and learning the value of yourself (oh man, I hope it’s better than that sounds).
My problem is how do you give a character like this good, solid, relate-able goals? He’s beaten down, angry, and has no real sense of self worth. He needs to get from there to, well, the opposite of that, but that’s not easy if he insists he doesn’t care about anything.
June 8, 2015 — 9:33 AM
Terry says:
just cos he insists he doesn’t care dopesnt mean you can’t show him doing something that proves otherwise?
June 8, 2015 — 10:49 AM
flickerjax says:
He’s definitely not acting like he doesn’t care most the time, despite what he says (otherwise he’d go live in a cabin in the woods or something), and I have no problem with that. It’s more about what he wants, which he says is nothing from anyone ever. Which isn’t exactly motivating or interesting.
June 8, 2015 — 10:55 AM
Terry says:
seems to me your only real choice is to write one or more really strong support characters to sweep him out into the world so that he’s forced to deal??
June 8, 2015 — 10:57 AM
flickerjax says:
Well yep, that’s the plot of the book. It’s three strong characters, forcing him to deal with different things, but yes, that’s what happens. But that’s not what he wants, just what needs to fullfil his arc.
June 8, 2015 — 11:03 AM
curleyqueue says:
I think starting from the place you wish to set your protagonist is a tough sell. Possible certainly, but I would need to see Shane’s dark emotional place as being intense enough to fuel change. What you describe is by no means a cake-walk life but it’s also maybe not drastically different from a lot of people’s worlds, and I would think his abusive mom relationship is the catalyst for his life’s revolution as opposed to his general dissatisfaction with economic opportunity. Shane will probably need to care about something, even if it’s not acted out in a regular way (e.g. striking out at corporate thinking, coming to the defense of kids abused by parents), because to care about his journey, I will have to care about him. Good ideas here – I like the heck out an emotional turnabout!
June 8, 2015 — 11:13 AM
flickerjax says:
Maybe my problem is where I’m starting the story? IDK. He’s just left the town he grew up in leaving everything about that life behind. But he haunted (for lack of a better word) by the sense that everyone he loves leaves or dies and people who hurt him are sort of constant In the sense that they will either hurt or take advantage of him, or be kind then vanish). He’s essentially achieved his goal: to get out of that town. Now he’s big city disaffected youth and doesn’t have a desire to do much besides be left alone. There’s no work, so it’ shard to dream about a better life, he doesn’t know anyone, but it’s hard to pursuing any kind of relationship when he assumes everyone will eventually suck in some way. I think ti’s easier to care about a character who wants something, has some drive, and I’m failing myself here in identifying his motivation, so I can kick start his journey.
June 8, 2015 — 11:23 AM
Maya Langston says:
I think starting with achieving his goal to get out of town, though pretty tough, is a good place to start. Because it’s a ‘what now?’ situation. Just because you achieve a goal doesn’t mean that everything else falls into place, so that could be what he’s struggling with.
Maybe you can make his mom his caustic inner voice, the one that’s like ‘You’re a loser you might as well go back home.’ Part of his battle could be that fight against that ‘voice’, to prove that he’s not a loser. He refuses to prove that his mom was right about him. He can’t go back home, but he has to figure out something or else she would have been right about him all along (You’re worthless, you’ll never amount to anything, see how far you’ll get without me, etc).
June 8, 2015 — 1:21 PM
flickerjax says:
This is actually really helpful. I am going for a ‘what now, I’ve achieved the thing then what happens’ but giving him something inner that humanizes his need for isolation might be the tack to take.
June 8, 2015 — 1:35 PM
portlandorange (@portlandorange) says:
An Armistead Maupin character uses the phrase “logical family” as a counterpoint to “biological family,” to describe loved ones you find later in life. I love seeing novels explore that theme, but you don’t mention the emerging AIDS crisis. Shane’s guaranteed to lose many more loved ones if he arrives in Seattle by 1982, and the crisis would be an unavoidable context for his developing personal goals & senses of family, community, and self-worth.
Maybe you could reset his life in the 2008 financial crisis, or back in the ’73–’75 recession and the early years of punk? (I wish I could revisit Legs McNeil & Gillian McCain’s oral history of punk as research for *my* novel!)
June 8, 2015 — 1:24 PM
flickerjax says:
Well I wrote a lengthy reply to this that doesn’t seem to have taken. The short version I have specific reasons for setting when I did (which is actually ’81-&’82), so that it’s it’s on the cusp of the crisis, right before the world goes to hell, and because the early punk years are one more unattainable thing for him: wanting to be part of a scene that isn’t what it was and having missed out, but also it was good time for local music in Seattle as small, somewhat independent scene, that would be made of people who felt like they missed out or were reliving glory, and would be attractive to a small town boy, without being too cliquey. And the basic plot of the book is about his logical family being thrust on him, rather than him seeking it. I think I’ve managed to distill that my basic problems are a) what makes me let these people in if he’s so hell bent on being alone, and b) what makes him likable enough that people would reach out to him?
June 8, 2015 — 1:44 PM
Amy McNamara says:
Sounds like the story you want to write is basically about somebody learning to build relationships. So when you make your main character in that story appear aloof and disaffected, it needs to be obvious to the reader that that is not true. From what you describe, the story you want to write is built entirely out of relationships, and the reader needs to see that, while if the protagonist is blind to it. I think you know this; but I’m trying to work out how you do it:
The punk scene and gay scene in 1982 Seattle are going to be a couple of very, very small towns (feuding clans, even? I wasn’t there, but I know punks were pretty homophobic in the 80s where I came from, my instinct is that your character might expect that). But the point is that these groups are social groups. They are bundles of relationships: relationships are the fabric that they are constructed of. If your character is immersed in these groups, then he is also–though he denies it to himself!–a part of the processes by which they “build community” and “find family”: positive ones, like offering a place to sleep to someone in trouble; and negative ones, like beating people up. So that context provides loads of opportunity for relationship-revealing action. And it would fit with your character’s history that he’d gravitate to a lot of the more toxic interpersonal stuff, stuff that’s going to hurt either him or others. But the key to making us care about your character, I think, is that his basic quality isn’t the aloofness, but rather the tension–“I need people” vs. “people suck.” Coming out seems to me like it would be a complex, intense mix of caring and not-caring about what other people think.
Motivation, though: I don’t think that tension is a motivation of the sort that you need to kick-start a journey. “I act like I don’t care, but I really just want to be loved!” will permeate and inform his actions, but people are complex; they operate on at least three levels, let’s say.
One of them is his basic qualities–the tension I just described will do well for that.
Then there are also conscious motivations: he wants to get out of the one-horse town, yes, but he already did, so add something more long-term–he’s fascinated by astronomy; he loves kids; he dreams of being a rodeo clown; the object of his unrequited love is back home in the one-horse town. This level is who *the character* thinks he is (and better if it isn’t all about being gay and punk!).
Finally, he needs the immanent instigating event–something to get him off the couch on this particular day. The problem with considering the coming out/beating/rescue as this instigating event is that–unless the rest of the story is about revenge–those don’t motivate him to go on a journey: he took a chance, he got beat down for it, he goes and licks his wounds, and tomorrow is a new story. Maybe we see him with his new friends now, but it’s not really part of an arc instigated by that same event, it’s a new episode. And there’s not a whole lot of personal agency in being beaten and being rescued, so they don’t even tell us much about the protagonist.
In contrast, the story will be stronger if the beating, rescue, and ensuing relationships are all by-products of some active motivation that frames the story–the thing that caused those events in the first place. Maybe homophobic punks murdered a drag queen (or a gay punk in his secret life as a rodeo clown). Maybe somebody stole his puppy. Maybe he saw someone with a tattoo of his mother’s full name and social security number and wants to find him to ask him why. Just because the story is all about relationships doesn’t mean the story should all be about relationships.
(Seriously–have you ever thought about all the street kids you see with puppies? Very seldom with adult dogs. So what happens to the puppies? There’s a tragic story or three there.)
June 8, 2015 — 4:10 PM
flickerjax says:
This is sooooooooooo Helpful! Thanks, Amy. I definitely set up punk and gay Seattle scenes in the early 80s because of specific tension and things that were happening then (I was there). And yes, I’ve been feeling through this on a few fronts (here, with friends, with my editor) and I agree with all of this. I think I’ve sorted how to make him likable for the story (through action). I think I’ve identified the need and how to create the push-pull of ‘people suck’ vs. ‘I need people.’ I think I’ve reframed the instigating event, moving the start of the story back in time a little and adding some much needed circumstances around another character and his relationship with her, which feeds into what happens later and sets up some other future events. And what I’m still missing is that element of what he thinks of himself and what he wants for himself. I don’t think he sees himself as worthless, but rather believes people don’t see his worth, but also that he doesn’t know yet just how good he is at whatever the thing is (his rodeo clown dream, or desire to bake wedding cakes, or whatever) and it’s certainly precious to him, this dream, and he can’t share it because people suck and could damage it. But yes, hmm, this is the last thing I really need to pinpoint. Thank you, really, for your insightful commentary.
June 9, 2015 — 9:19 AM
mizchriz says:
Hi! Is your character lying to himself or does he genuinely believe these things? Either way, something that might help is having your character realize that you can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need. I think maybe you need more of a starting incident (his mother gets worse, their house is ransacked, etc) that would give your character something to worry about, if not something he wants for himself. Once he’s on that path, I think you can develop him as you want through your events. I hope this makes sense, but I know that acceptance is a common goal of the LGBTQA+ community, whether your character realizes this or not, finding work is a common goal of many 19-25 year olds (myself included), and creating our own space in the world is a deeper goal of many of us as well. Maybe your character wants to move into his own space with his new family while supporting his mom. I don’t think you have a problem with relatable goals, but maybe just relatability?
June 8, 2015 — 11:21 AM
flickerjax says:
I think he believes these things. Everyone he’s cared about has abandoned him (by death or selfishness). He’s moved to a new city to start his own life on his own terms, hindered somewhat by lack of work. His outcome for the story is, essentially, he thinks he doesn’t need anyone but “you can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.” His current starting incident is that he steps out into the world, publicly gay, at a punk show (a place I think he feel swill be inclusive) and gets the snot beat out of him (cities aren’t always so different than small towns) and is rescued by someone who befriends him but is essentially his complete opposite, and is then pulled into a ton of situations that prove that his desire to avoid emotional connections isn’t right.
I think I’m overthinking this. Actually, having answered people’s questions here and talked with another friend in email this morning, I think my problem is twofold: if he really feels he doesn’t need connections with people, how does he end up socially involved with all these people, instead of just walking away from their overtures of friendship; and, if he feels this way, what about him is good enough that people like him and want to reach out to him? Obviously I can’t really write this until I figure that out. Ugh.
June 8, 2015 — 1:18 PM
Nancy Hunter says:
It doesn’t matter so much if *he* or the society around him thinks he doesn’t care about anything, as long as the reader knows he cares about something. Think specific, concrete, even small. He wants to be a reporter writing about the punk scene for an underground newspaper (big). Or he wants to get to x music festival which costs $y and he has no money (smaller). Or he wants to walk down the street holding hands with his boyfriend (very small, but still a really hard thing to do in most of America in 1982). Then give him obstacles in reaching that concrete goal, obstacles he must fight to overcome. That fight is where his true character will start to emerge , and actions he has to take to get to his goal will change him, whether or not he ever actually reaches that goal.
Also, don’t be afraid to start with the ‘wrong’ goal for your character. If it doesn’t work, you can always go back and change it, but you’ll learn a lot about how your character reacts under pressure in the process.
June 8, 2015 — 11:22 AM
flickerjax says:
My problem is identifying the thing he cares about, however small, whatever it may be, and making sure it’s the right thing. I’ve got 60k words of him going through the motions with the other characters but none of it is really working, because he lacks drive, or reason to be where he is, other than happenstance.
June 8, 2015 — 11:27 AM
Amy McNamara says:
Ah, you said what I wanted to say, but much more succinctly.
June 8, 2015 — 4:20 PM
Wendy Christopher says:
I think he needs a passion. A ‘thing’ – maybe the one and only ‘thing’ in his life – that he cares about, that inspires him, that makes him keep getting up in the morning. It could be a secret hobby or vocation; drawing amazing chalk pictures on the street, secretly landscaping derelict patches of urban wasteland to turn them into beautiful spaces for the community, and he then finds his worth in the joy he sees it brings to others. It could be a person; a family member, love interest or just someone in whom he can see echoes of himself, so that reaching out to them feels in some way like self-healing. Or it could be a cause; perhaps he’s put under pressure from some source to attend a club or meeting (i.e. abuse survivor’s focus group, as recommended by some well-meaning authority figure) and goes there the first time grudgingly, but gradually starts to find connections with people there, until the club or its members are under some sort of threat and he is inspired to stand with them and fight their cause.
And he can still do all of this while staunchly maintaining he doesn’t care – because that’s often what people like him do, even though they care very much on the inside. So maybe have him TELLING people he doesn’t care, while at the same time having him use body language and perform actions that contradict that? Readers will love him all the more for it.
June 9, 2015 — 7:56 AM
flickerjax says:
Yes, this is very much what I need! Thank you! I’ve been drilling down and distilling the problem and I think it’s very much come to this, his passion and drive for the thing he really cares about. And then artfully showing it to the audience even a she proclaims not caring out loud.
June 9, 2015 — 9:23 AM
David says:
Hrrgh… okay.
Urban fantasy. Lily Evans is a young woman in an abusive relationship with a Faerie prince. She runs his nightclub, facilitates a lot of illegal or nasty errands, and utterly adores her boss even though he’s got a harem and a violent temper.
And… it’s a lie. She used to be a faerie-hunting vigilante under a different name, but she fucked up going after this prince and he’s kept her amnesiac and brainwashed ever since. The story kicks off when faeries start turning up dead from what looks like Lily’s old M.O.
My concerns:
1. Writing a protagonist who will essentially stop existing (or at best become a voice in someone else’s head) two-thirds of the way through the book when her memory comes back. Even if I go ahead with the rotating three protagonist structure I’ve got in mind, that could annoy some folks.
2. Writing an abuse victim who does not and will not stand up against her abuser. (Her old self will, and holy shit does he come off bad in the end, but Lily’s under a geas and will excuse him anything.) I feel I’m on shaky ground writing about an abusive relationship in the first place, but making an interesting protagonist who’s under mind control by the antagonist – yikes.
June 8, 2015 — 9:36 AM
flickerjax says:
1. Definitely give her some verbal and action queues that are the same in her personality both pre and post amnesia. Something to keep the reader with the character that they recognize from before.
2. Make her chafe under the requests, perhaps feeling a little guilty about not being 100% obedient and wonder what’s wrong with her that she can’t automatically do what she knows needs to be done (since she doesn’t know she’s brainwashed.
3. read up on Power and Control as it relates to domestic violence. Think about reason even smart women would stay, pay special attention to stuff about really charismatic abusers, to both abuse and charm at the same time, and trick victims into stay because of promises they make and the way they hand out praise with scorn, making victims want to please them both to avoid abuse and to revel in the praise. You can make this more subtle I’m sure, but it makes victims more sympathetic, especially ones who don’t fight back.
June 8, 2015 — 9:50 AM
Rachel Ambrose says:
Just FYI, you might want to think about changing her name – Lily Evans is a Harry Potter character, so some people might be thrown by that. Also re: abusive relationships, do your research. I know it gets a bad rap, but go on tumblr and find some psychology blogs and rummage around there. Also the #whyIstayed tag on Twitter might be of use to you in regards to why Lily stays and how to make her seem less passive. Does the autidence know she’s under mind control, or does that come as a revelation when she figures out she’s been brainwashed?
June 8, 2015 — 9:56 AM
David says:
#$@!, right, her maiden name. Now I’m going to go nuts figuring out if Rowling poisoned my brain or it was just a coincidence. Thank you!
The audience should be able to work out that she’s under mind control, but the extent, and her old identity, is intended as a surprise.
June 8, 2015 — 10:10 AM
Laura W. says:
You could change it to something similar like “Lilian.” :/ Then you could still call her “Lili” if you’re really attached to “Lily,” and just change her last name to something like Edwards or Evanson or Emerson. Sorry, man, I know it sucks when I subconsciously pick a popular character name for my own character…
June 9, 2015 — 12:14 AM
curleyqueue says:
The first thing that strikes me with your character is that she went from ass-kicker to victim, which seems counter-intuitive, unless you’ve already got something major that causes the switch in roles. That something could be very interesting as could Lily’s journey back to her true self, since it is likely to be full of opportunities for her to prove herself, get back at this abuser, manipulate him for once, you get my drift.
Don’t be afraid to explore this dynamic, I think lots of us are wading in totally unfamiliar waters when we write!
June 8, 2015 — 10:51 AM
Clay Hanson says:
For your first concern, I see a few options. For one, if could help if you avoid making it a hard switch/change over. Let some of the real character bleed into the new one and have those events get stronger and more pronounced. This way you get an easy transition for the reader.
Alternatively (or additionally), could you have an element or two from the new personality that the real personality desires. E.g showing that even though the real part was dormant, stuff still stuck and the character still grew, so its not all lost.
Lastly, you evidently have magic in this world. If you really want to keep her, put the new personality in a new body or whatever. It could be fun to put her at loggerheads with the real one.
June 8, 2015 — 11:05 AM
Laura W. says:
Make sure it’s still the same personality dealing with her situation post-amnesia unless you want to have her actually have something like DID (dissociative identity disorder). Also, have her more passive, victimized personality influence who she is and what she learns after regaining her memories. She doesn’t have to disappear halfway through; she needs to be incorporated into the greater whole. One doesn’t just get over an experience like that without it having affect one’s personality in some way. Perhaps after she regains her memory, she has self-doubt that she is that take-no-shit person — who, after all, got captured, lost her memory, and spent a long time as the victim in an abusive relationship — and her journey is about not letting the period where she was abused and lost her memory define who she is now. Handwaving all that when she gets her memory back doesn’t feel right. She can learn from it without being defined by it, if that makes sense.
June 8, 2015 — 1:28 PM
Cari Hislop says:
I understand you want the change back to her kick-ass self as a surprise, but if you really want to highlight the mind control…there is the option of a prologue where you show the real character kicking-ass and then sandwich the controlled version of the character in between. It would emphasise the horror of what he’s doing to her…because the reader would know what she’d really do as opposed to what she’s being forced to do against her will.
The question that comes to my mind is, “Where is the best start to the story?” As a reader I want to know how the evil fairy prince magicked or manipulated her into becoming his veritable slave…what happened? Was she slowly poisoned as she came to the bar every Friday night? Did she slowly change? Was it a strange instantaneous shift in personality? Why does the prince want her as an emotional slave? I assume she’s beautiful, but are there other aspects to her that give him reason to want to either “own” or “leash” her? Does having her under his control give him her magic or power ie make him more powerful or does he just get off on having a powerful person under his thumb unwittingly fawning over him? Endless questions! Your story sounds really fascinating!
June 8, 2015 — 5:27 PM
David says:
Actually had the same thought. I planned on opening with a prologue showing her original self’s attempt to assassinate the Prince, but she gets careless and one of his harem stabs her in the back – which is what Lily falsely remembers doing, so when her old self apparently starts killing people she’s terrified that she’s on the list. Hence her doing protagonist-y things trying to save her own neck and maybe win some praise from Glorious Glorian.
Even drafted the book that way one NaNoWriMo, but it ended up a bit thin. So I’m currently rolling in some other protagonists – her brother, an amateur mage trying to find out what happened to his sister, and a WW2-era female golem/federal agent trying to keep a bunch of dead faeries from turning into a Court war.
Thanks Cari and everyone else! My brain is really bubbling on this one again.
June 9, 2015 — 11:08 AM
Rachel Ambrose says:
Riley O’Connor is a lesbian theater major at a women’s college in North Carolina. Her parents are winemakers, and they want her to take on the family business, but she loves theater, so she makes that her major. She also loves her father’s best friend’s daughter, Ella Mae. They’re dating but keep their relationship a secret, writing each other only emails and letters due to Ella Mae’s conservative parents. I’m putting these characters (plus a few more) into a seven-story arc.
Riley is giving me trouble – partly I’m not allowing her to take up the brain space in my head she needs because I’m working on other stuff, and partly because she just doesn’t have a voice yet. I know she’s stubborn and funny and fiery and passionate, but she won’t be any of those things on the page. Since it will be more snapshots of Riley’s life since it’s flash fiction (which is much more interesting to me) than a proper story arc, I have the ability to distill Riley down to her essence, and I just need to put the time in and tinker with her. But if anyone has any interesting ideas about queer ladies in Southern culture, please let me know!
June 8, 2015 — 9:50 AM
flickerjax says:
Just throwing a bunch of stuff out there: Is love enough to make Riley keep this relationship secret? Is she already out herself? Or are the both hiding? Southern lesbians have both an easier and harder time of it. It’s more acceptable to be tomboy if you’re young and poor in the South, though you’re still expected to grow up and be a lady (see Fried Green Tomatoes). There’s also some more allowances for eccentricity in the South, if there’s an excuse for it. Unmarried woman? Fine if she devoted her life to caring for aging parents and participating in Church functions. So people might whisper about her but would praise her for her sacrifices. Is Riley rebelling against her upbringing and Ella Mae isn’t? Why do they have to keep it secret (besides conservative parents, because that’s harder to buy in this day and age, what would make Ella Mae commit to keeping up appearance to people who don’t respect her?). Does Riley like having a secret? Does it make their connection feel more special because it’s only them and no one else is in their world together?
June 8, 2015 — 10:05 AM
Rachel Ambrose says:
Riley will be coming out to her mom in the fourth installment of the seven. Ella Mae is a PK (Preacher’s kid for the unfamiliar) and thus her parents are still pretty conservative, plus Riley is naturally more outspoken than Ella Mae (this “I’m out and you’re not” divergence will become a source of conflict for them in the latter half of the series). In some ways the secretive nature of their relationship does draw them closer in the first three stories, but it’s suffocating to live forever in a box, or so Riley says. (Note: this romance, as many college romances do, does not end happily.)
June 8, 2015 — 3:31 PM
Elizabeth Marling says:
I am not sure if this exactly answers your question, but I hope it is helpful regardless. So, bear with me and hopefully it will spark the detail you find lacking right now in your girl. Fingers crossed, let’s go:
Characters have to have risk. This person strikes me as coming from old money. Parents are winemakers. She is a theatre major. They live lives of leisure and luxury. What are the stakes if she were disowned? If Riley’s parents were not even brought up with basic survival skills but in a world of culture and manners. If she were suddenly out on the street, even with Ella Mae by her side, I imagine it would be a culture shock to say the least.
If this is set in a dystopian society the stakes could be even higher for the reader, but frankly this will be trying for the character regardless. If it was me, I might try the first draft with Riley building herself up to come out to her parents. Really rally the readers behind her. Show that she is vulnerable. Let the reader get a glimpse of the little girl who wants her parents to love her, who wants to fit in, who just wants to impress them one time but never does the right thing. More than that, though, she just wants two aloof, self-involved people to pay attention to her, and she spends a lot of time trying to get her parents and anyone who serves as a substitute for them to pay attention. She is a little girl who feels invisible shouting “Look at me! Look at me!”
You’ve got to build it up so the reader expects the parents to react differently to the news that she a lesbian in love and ready to shout it from the rooftops. You have to get the reader to believe that something will change this time. Maybe they will scream and fight. Maybe they will cry. Maybe they will all break down and hug it out. But walls WILL come down.
Then her parents do not react at all. They don’t even tell her she is cut off. They have a letter sent by the family lawyer. Her father authorizes it with a stamp. He doesn’t even sign it.
You MUST READ the novella “A Story of Days to Come” by H.G. Wells if any of what I have said interests you. It is available for free all over the web, on amazon as a kindle download, project guggenheim, just to name a few. It won’t give you much about your character Riley, but it will provide a reference point for what I mention here about the risks of being financially disowned because of one’s choice of spouse.
In a nutshell, I think that this character’s challenge is trying to be noticed in a society where unpleasantries are ignored. She also is insulated from the struggles of the poor and working classes without even realizing it, because in her family, in her neighborhood, in her peer group, in the people who she and her family have always associated with, it is customary to turn away from ugliness. Within her family, being gay is unpleasant and so it is not acknowledged. Riley wants to be seen for her true self, not an image based on what is proper or normal. I am interested to find out how far your character will go to accomplish her goal. That is what immediately strikes me as interesting about her. Rebellion is a great jumping off point–but how resilient and clever is Riley when she is challenged by people and situations other than authority? What does Riley do when being a rebel doesn’t work?
June 8, 2015 — 8:09 PM
Craig Owens says:
My WIP is a first person narrative told by the protagonist, a man in his early thirties who has just seen his marriage dissolve and is in the midst of a divorce and custody battle. He is cynical about love and relationships and decides to turn himself from loser to ladies’ man and chronicle his dating adventures on a blog. The trouble is, after transforming himself into Mr. Right as basically an experiment to see a prototypical Mr. Right exists and if he is capable of becoming one, he begins to fall in love with one of the women he’s dating and must be honest about his original intentions.
At the end, he realizes that his past relationship is not something to look at with regret, but something to celebrate and that you just have to surrender to the process and trust things will happen as they were meant to.
The thing I’m struggling with most in the story, though, is his motivation and the character arc. Yes, he’s a loser with women. Yes, he’s cynical about love. Most books on this kind of topic fall in two camps: he’s either doing it for a second chance at love or simply for sex. The motivation I’m working with now is that he’s doing it as an experiment to see if he CAN and where he’s gone wrong in his past attempts, but I don’t know if that’s strong enough motivation. Also, I don’t know if the realization at the end is a big enough payoff for the reader. Is there another realization he can come to?
Thoughts? I appreciate any insight you all can offer!
June 8, 2015 — 9:51 AM
Emily says:
In your writing, make sure to line out his motives. If people are confused at all about what he’s doing, then they’re more likely to go into one of those two camps. Make it obvious through his blog that he’s experimenting and not just trying to end up with as many women as possible.
I kind of think the lesson at the end is somewhat stereotypical. Granted, I don’t know how you plan on ending the novel, and that will make or break the moral. I would write at least an outlines or however you plan things and try out a bunch of different endings. Find out which endings work with the moral you have and which don’t. I hope that was somewhat helpful?
June 8, 2015 — 11:08 AM
Craig Owens says:
Very helpful! Thanks.
The moral I’ve drafted out is (basically): To experience true love, you must surrender to it — no manipulation, tricks, etc.
I want to stay away from the cliche “Just be yourself” message. I could always explore what he’s learned about the realities of real world relationships as opposed to the constructed realities that the character presents to the women. I would love the message to speak to his character’s transformation (mainly) as well as offer commentary on broader society, if possible.
What do you think?
June 8, 2015 — 12:48 PM
Laura W. says:
Sounds simple enough to me. Guy starts dating experiment. Woman falls for him. Guy realizes he can’t just keep manipulating her feelings for the sake of his experiment.
This makes me wonder what are the stakes to stop him from coming clean. Maybe he thinks it won’t be a big deal and then it is and she leaves him and he’s much more hurt than he thought. Maybe his online persona actually gets him fame and fortune or some other source of income, and he has to choose whether to give up that.
I think he has to have a radically different opinion of his actions from the woman he’s dating in order to generate a conflict he actually learns from. If he’s fine, and she’s fine, and they’re all fine, what did he really learn?
June 8, 2015 — 11:49 PM
Terry says:
Excuse the language but what’s coming to my mind is the question: are you going to make her fem or butch, because that’s going to impact her persona right away, plus the way others react to her, especially perhaps those who don’t realise she’s gay??
June 8, 2015 — 10:35 AM
Emily says:
Okay, so mine is a seventeen year old kid named Keme Sato. His mother left when he was ten and never came back and his Dad is distant and doesn’t really take the time to raise his son. He’s moved around a lot and suffers from depression. He hasn’t been to school very much since his mom left and hasn’t really connected with people, mostly because he keeps moving. So eventually, he makes a stand for himself and starts attending school, even though he’s terrified by the idea. He’s a bit anti-social at first and kind of awkward around people in general. He really likes drawing and art, but prefers to think of it as a hobby and doesn’t think anything good will come of it.
I’m having so many problems with this character. I want the depression he goes through in the book to seem real and not just a plot point. I actually want to have that impact his life in a big way and I’m not quite sure how to go about it. I also don’t want him ending up to be a stereotypical angst character or have him be completely unlikable, especially in the beginning of the story when he’s at his worst.
June 8, 2015 — 10:58 AM
Maya Langston says:
What you can do is make him an extrovert with depression. He wants to meet people and get out there are mingle, and the idea excites him, but depression can make you really antisocial. Some days it’s a challenge to get out of bed. One day, he can be really social, but the next, he’s withdrawn. That would have some effect on budding friendships. He can feel trapped in his body. HE wants to get out an experience life, but his depression feels like a very physical limitation. This can create a cycle: he tries to break out of his shell, but his fear and depression holds him back, which causes him to beat up on himself, which lowers his self esteem, which deepens his depression. Add to that your typical teenage fear of fitting in and being accepted and you can make a very relatable character.
Maybe he can enter his art in a competition at school or locally, and he wins of places and that opens him up to other people. It can give him a self esteem boost, but the cycle kicks in. Also, the death of his mother can play a part in this. Maybe he was very close to her and now he has a fear of loosing people he gets close to, so he subconsciously keeps them at arms length. You can also add the fact that his dad is mourning too, just without his son. They must be really lonely. Maybe that can be a side plot, where they go from barely speaking to learning how to put the pieces of their life back together.
Sorry if it’s a bit garbled, but I hope that helps!
June 8, 2015 — 1:08 PM
Maya Langston says:
Oops I thought his mom died! But that can work even better, along the lines of ‘people I care about leave, so there must be something wrong with me. Not going to do that again.’ This fear can war with his need to connect with people.
June 8, 2015 — 1:11 PM
Emily says:
Thank you so much! Yeah, that would be perfect! 🙂
Where’s my pen?! I’m off to scribble ideas and such down. Thank you again!
June 8, 2015 — 11:50 PM
Miri says:
You’ve got a turning point embedded in here–“he makes a stand for himself and starts attending school, even though he’s terrified by the idea”–that I think will give you something to work with. It’s also something you’ll have to make some effort to convince the reader of, because as it’s described here I don’t think I quite believe it.
What makes him decide to attend school? Inertia is INCREDIBLY hard to break–if nothing around him was changing, then it would take something TREMENDOUS inside of him to cause that change. Do the consequences of NOT attending school finally sink in? Does he realize that he eventually wants out from his house, that he would rather actually live alone than just feel like he does, and that pushes him toward independence? Does his craving for human connection finally overcome his solitude? Does he actually prefer to be alone or is that just where he finds himself?
Since he’s been out of school for a while, how does he get back into school? What kind of paperwork does he need? How many grades behind is he? This’ll have an effect on his relationships with the other kids, who, in this situation, are not only craps who don’t know how good they have it, but YOUNGER little craps. Are there any clubs he might want to enter–art club, etc.–that would put him with kids his own age, or older, or with whom he has more in common?
Drawing and art are very common hobbies for this type of character, so what makes him different? What things does he like to draw? What things does he wish he could draw better, or does he find himself drawing again and again despite not even wanting to?
As far as depression being more than just a plot point…depression hits everyone differently at different times, along a wide, wide range of severity. The day he decides “This is kind of bullshit; I should get out of the house” would have to be a good day, and then I hope he doesn’t have any more BAD days over the process of getting back into school, getting his classes scheduled, doing the paperwork, having to bug his dad for signatures, or else that’s gonna put a stop (or at least, a heavy slow) on the whole process.
The problem with this sort of character is that by having no strong emotions and no connections to other people. you’re not giving yourself much to work with. Find the thing that makes him say “Wait a minute, I need to get out of this house for eight hours a day” and follow that. Find the hidden cravings for interaction or achievement and follow those. People with depression still have those, and characters with depression definitely need to.
June 8, 2015 — 1:46 PM
Fred G. Yost says:
As someone who’s had to deal with a bit of depression, I’d say you can explore the balance between dealing with depression and the maintaining enough of an outward semblance of normalcy.
When I was younger, I felt ashamed about being depressed, and the last thing I wanted was for anyone to be aware of it, so all of my energy would go towards putting up enough of a good face in public so that I would be left alone. It breaks down, eventually, but you might be able to introduce him before that breaking point in order to make him a little more relatable / likable?
You might also have that drive him to continue to the push for school. Maybe he notices people looking at him, feels like they’re judging him for not going to school. Maybe he meets someone that he can rely on to help when his drive lacks. Maybe the dad puts him in school against his will, as a way to keep him out of the house and at arms length.
I hope this is helpful, I’m still learning how to provide effective critiques.
June 9, 2015 — 1:41 PM
Lani says:
This sounds like a really good starting point! I feel that maybe he’s just a bit too…tragic? Personally, I think I could connect to him more if he had one outstanding negative flaw (compulsive liar, for example) that stems from his tragic past. We don’t like to see him make mistakes but at the same time we love when he does, if that makes sense?
My apologies if this wasn’t very clear, I’m not very good at critiquing.
June 10, 2015 — 4:26 PM
curleyqueue says:
Male character, early thirties, sort of in hiding from his old life, which I’m tentatively thinking was military- possibly secret ops type work. He excelled at his job. Developed a disability (not due to job), which got him dismissed and he’s living as much off the radar as possible, doing a ranch-hand job and struggling with the fact that he perceives himself as a lousy version of his former self.
Encounters a woman from his past which causes his life to take a path which will force him toward old behaviors, old contacts, but also brings to the fore an ability he’s never been sure of, and was reluctant to admit he has (enter supernatural aspect here).
My problem with him is that I keep feeling only his anger yet want him to have a tangible vulnerability too. Can he be simultaneously full of fury and in a tender desperate place and still be believable? Dunno. You tell me. Please!
June 8, 2015 — 11:33 AM
amydrees says:
Have you ever read MacDonald’s Travis McGee novels? Your protagonist sounds like him except that Travis has convinced himself that he likes the new version of himself and his anger is over who he was, not who he is. Travis’ vulnerability is he likes women too much, especially the kind who are bright enough to recognize him as Mr. Right Now and not Mr. Right. He’s a sexist pig ultimately but it is this bizarre chivalry that gives him an awkward charm. Probably not help but it’s what your character sparked in me.
June 8, 2015 — 11:49 AM
curleyqueue says:
I have not! Think I will check them out- thanks for the tip. And I like the idea of a particular characteristic that could be endearing in the face of all my protag’s angst.
June 8, 2015 — 6:25 PM
David says:
Definitely sounds doable! Your character sounds like the sort of person who avoids social entanglements, partially because he’s in sort-of-hiding but partially because he doesn’t feel like he deserves friends, happiness, etc. A person like that might actually be hurt by a genuine kindness he wasn’t expecting, maybe lash out undeservedly and then go castigate himself for being such a supreme asshole, or indulge in some self-destructive behavior. Sometimes anger is just a preemptive strike to avoid being hurt.
My thoughts, anyway. Listen to what works and to hell with the rest!
June 8, 2015 — 12:37 PM
curleyqueue says:
Wait, have the two of you met?! Pretty much exactly what he’s like, though after what you said I’m going to further explore the ‘not deserving’ possibility of his underlying feelings. Might be lots more material there. Thanks for the response!
June 8, 2015 — 6:29 PM
SC Rose says:
Okay *cracks knuckles* This isn’t easy for me to do, but I know I’m missing something important about this character, which is bad because he is THE MOST important character in my story, aside from my MC. My MC flows very natural from me and my readers so far just adore her, but this character, I can’t quite get a handle on and it’s depressing because he’s actually the reason why I started writing the story in the first place.
This character is a shapeshifter. His people were created by an advanced human race, and in their blood is the fountain of youth. His people have been enslaved by their creators who have become corrupted by immortality (because that’s what I think would really happen to the human race if people could live forever).
So this character, Rhaen, is a soldier. He’s trying to set his people free without the humans finding out, in order to try and prevent an all out war and lose more of his people. He’s smart. He’s noble. He’s sarcastic and has a temper. He has a brother that has been undercover, working as a human to gather information and rise the ranks in power (part of their strategy), but finally started to go mad because of all the things he had to do to get there and everything he’s lost. So Rhaen put him into a sleep that’s basically like the Odinsleep, and changes his form to look like his brother and finish what needs to be done. His fears are of letting his people down, being a slave forever. And of course, thunder and sharks. He actually hates a lot of things, which I think is funny. But he does love my MC and he loves his people. He is incredibly loyal and really good with an axe, he totally kicks ass…
But I can quite get a handle on him! Am I just thinking about it too much because he’s so important? Do you guys feel there’s something missing? Do you have any advice on how to get know a character better? Seriously, anything helps! Thanks for taking the time to read this.
June 8, 2015 — 11:52 AM
flickerjax says:
For getting a handle on a character I usually write stuff about them that never makes it into the book. IF they are not a POV character, then I try and write some of the story from their POV. If that does work, I try and write a bit about their life before the story started, like what they wanted before the book’s conflict. And not just day dream about it, but it down and try and make it cohesive, so the character in the book can flow from this past into the story.
June 8, 2015 — 12:02 PM
SC Rose says:
Ooo!! That’s a fantastic idea! Why didn’t I think of that? Thank you so much! I think doing that will help a lot.
June 8, 2015 — 6:48 PM
Jana Denardo says:
I know what you mean, the character I posted is much the same (i.e. second most important character). I think you do have a decent handle on him just from this. I guess I do wonder how does he react to the humans around him? Has he found some he actually likes? How does he suppress his rage around them and does he start to hate himself for what he’s doing? Does he fear going mad like his brother.
There are some very detailed character sheets on the web and sometimes I fill those out because it forces me to think about things I might not have about those characters.
Rhaen sounds like a character I’d like to meet someday.
June 8, 2015 — 12:10 PM
SC Rose says:
Those are some very important questions! Thank you!! Those are some great angles, and I have answers in my head but I think it’ll really help me to go and write it all down. I’ll have to go check out those character sheets.
And thank you so much!! That’s very encouraging! Sometimes I worry that what I’m working on is just too weird lol so it makes me really happy to know that. Thank you!!
June 8, 2015 — 6:55 PM
Jana Denardo says:
glad I could help
June 8, 2015 — 11:37 PM
Fred G. Yost says:
I’m not sure how helpful it is to say ‘check out this other stuff that sounds kind of like your story’, but you might be able to find some inspiration from Brandon Sanderson’s Mistborn series (rebellion from immortal / oppressive overlord + super important secondary character) and Stephen Brust’s Taltos novels (‘lesser’ being living among superior ‘humans’).
Other than that, I’m not sure I have any advice different from what’s already been offered. This story, at least, this character, sounds right up my wheelhouse, so I can only wish you the best of luck finishing it.
June 11, 2015 — 9:26 AM
SC Rose says:
Okay, so I tried to reply to this and it apparently didn’t work. So if you get to replies, I apologize! Anyway, I think what I basically said was, I love Brandon Sanderson! I’ll definitely have to check out those books. Thank you! And THANK YOU so much for the support, it makes me so happy and gives me hope! And thank you also for the luck, because I need it lol! I’ve been applying all of this helpful advice and I’m already seeing some awesome progress. There’s hope!!
June 17, 2015 — 6:37 PM
Jana Denardo says:
This is love of interest of my main protagonist (who is easy to write) but I’m struggling with Luc a bit.
Luc is a displace Cajun living in Las Vegas after the hurricane took his bayou home. He is under the thumb of his abusive father and brother. Dad pulled them out of middle school around age 13 so Luc is uneducated and working for his dad in a bar. He’s a bisexual Catholic and his family and his priest have made him fear his sexuality. He meets Arrigo, a wealthy paranormal investigator who wakes up Luc’s dreams of getting his GED and getting out of that house. Luc fears his family and his own future with his lack of education. Luc has spent his life (he’s mid 20s) doing what his father says, pretending to be completely straight and being a punching bag for his dad and brother. Some of my problems with Luc is trying to find the other side of him beyond the timid submissive. The only dream I know he has is getting that GED. I know I need to flesh out his wants and pastimes more.
June 8, 2015 — 12:03 PM
Miri says:
It sounds like he’s in a very limiting environment, so you can use that to your advantage.
As far as wants: what things does he have, or reasonably have access to? Does he have access to television, to see commercials for material things or advertisements for a way of life that he thinks is better? Does he see people in the bar that he wants to emulate? Does he feel like he’s ALLOWED to want things? Does he feel guilty if he sees something (an article of clothing, a relationship, a personality trait) and realizes he wants it?
Pastimes: Does he know any kids his own age? Does he miss people from the middle school? Is he friendly with any of the bar patrons (either in a “better be nice to this kid ’cause he’ll snitch to the owner” kind of way or “this kid’s kinda funny, why dontcha have a sip with us”)? Are any of these people bad influences? Does he smoke or drink with any of them? Alone? How many hours a day does he work? What kinds of things to do are available/in walking distance for him, since he can’t drive? Is he athletic at all? Is he a closeted bookworm?
Start at the bar and work your way out. Kids tend to do what’s available to them. And good luck.
June 8, 2015 — 12:29 PM
Jana denardo says:
Thanks. This is helpful. I never thought about watching commercials and wanting things. He does watch Swamp People because it makes him feel like he’s back home so he has that. He’s bonded with a single mom waitress of an all night diner up the street (that’s relatively new to the story)
These are all excellent questions. I need to go put them to Luc and see what pops.
June 8, 2015 — 2:12 PM
sknicholls says:
@ Jana: Setting a scene or two where he confronts his father, or another ancillary character, might help. I had a character once who was horribly afraid of an abusive step-mother, but whacking her once with the bunk bed ladder and the fights she had with a bully showed she wasn’t a hapless, hopeless submissive.
What does he want to use his GED for, does he have aspirations beyond the High School equivalency?
June 8, 2015 — 1:25 PM
Jana Denardo says:
Thanks. The confrontation scene is already written (I’m not there in the novel yet but that scene demanded to be written)
Yes, he does have aspirations but the what he wants is eluding me. I think that’s part of the problem.
June 8, 2015 — 2:09 PM
SC Rose says:
Hmm… Maybe Luc himself isn’t exactly sure what he wants yet. I’ve known some people who really had only one goal in life (like Luc getting out of his parent’s house and getting his GED) and once they accomplished it, they were just lost. It isn’t that unusual for someone to kind of have that one shining star that gets them through the day, and then have to find themselves again. You could try using it as a form of character development. Have him be firm in his determination to do this thing, and then have to kind of find himself again once he does, or along the way. Maybe it’s not just your journey to find out who he is and what he wants, but his own journey as well. Or maybe as he starts to pursue this goal, is that when he finds other things that peak his interest? How does his pursuit of these things start to open his mind? As for pasttimes, does he do things that make him look cool and hide his sexuality more? Does he do sports? Skateboard? Martial arts? Which of these things would he genuinely enjoy and which are just a front?
June 8, 2015 — 3:57 PM
Jana Denardo says:
Thanks. That’s an excellent point. I think Luc definitely does not know what he wants to do other than get his GED and get out. Once he’s with Arrigo things will change for him any how.
He used to hunt and do woodworking back in New Orleans. Since coming to Vegas he’s been much more isolated and cut off from the things he used to do.
June 8, 2015 — 11:39 PM
Maya Langston says:
I’ve been tinkering with this idea for the better part of a year. I leave to work on other stuff, but I keep coming back to this idea. For a little context, the book is set in 1750s Jamaica and goes until about 1760. It’s the height of the slave trade and Jamaica is an extremely profitable colony; even moreso than the 13 American colonies put together, because of sugar. It was a true Gilded Age.
So my main character is Eurydice. She’s mixed; she was raised by her mother, a former African slave, until she died and then her father, a modest white merchant, raised her along side his younger daughter, Kitty. Her father raised them as equals, which was fairly unusual at that time. They were both raised as ‘ladies’. Her father came from a noble family, but their glory days are about 100 years behind them. He came to the Caribbean to remake his family’s fortune, but only had modest success since he doesn’t participate in the slave trade. He clings to his family’s former glory, so the girls are raised like noblewomen, even though they barely have the money for such a lifestyle. Kitty, against all odds, ends up marrying the heir to one of Jamaica’s most profitable sugar estates, and Eurydice follows her, because the sisters are very close.
With Eurydice, I’m exploring the idea of a ‘greedy’ woman. A woman who wants more for her life than what society deems acceptable for her. She’s enamored with the lifestyle of the wealthy, and listens to her father’s stories of their family’s former glory. In the beginning, she follows Kitty to Jamaica so she can help establish her as the ‘Grand Dame’ of Jamaican society, since she’s a skilled dressmaker and clothes is the currency of that society. But as time goes on, Eurydice starts wanting it for herself and begins to question why she can’t have it. She’s thinking that, yes, she’s black, but she’s equally white, so why can’t she have what her sister has? However, she starts falling for a former slave who is one of the leaders of what will be the largest slave rebellion in Jamaican history. So, Eurydice has to ask herself what she wants more: ‘power’ or love? Because if she does ‘follow her heart’ she’ll definitely give up any hope she has of climbing society’s social ladder. Eventually she does find a way to have her power and her love, but it comes back to bite her hard once the rebellion gets underway. It’s sort of like Thackery’s Vanity Fair meets Starz’s Spartacus.
My problem is trying to give her more agency. Chuck’s post opened my eyes a lot, but I feel like along the way, she’s playing more defense than offense, and I don’t want her to be passive.
Thanks!
June 8, 2015 — 12:56 PM
Dianna Gunn says:
I think what you need to do here is really establish her voice, because a lot of these things can have agency if they’re written the right way. If the reasons for her to make the decisions she makes during the story–moving with her sister and helping her establish herself–are well thought out and made clear, it will change the tone of the piece entirely. For example, she might believe helping her sister throw parties is the perfect way to find a proper suitor for herself. Maybe that’s her goal. Then she’s not just trying to help her sister.
Also, sometimes a story is more powerful when the point is that the character has no agency. A really, really good example of this is the Hunger Games series. For much of the series, Katniss has almost no agency–it’s really all she can do to stay alive. But very few people do–they’re all being played, and I think in some ways that was the entire point of the series.
And you can also have her develop agency. It already sounds like she kind of does–she finds a way to have power and love, and there’s a huge opportunity for agency when you have the rebellion actually start. Or just as much opportunity to take agency away, because that happens a lot in war.
If you can really analyze these events I think you will find opportunities for agency. Just really think about the how and why of every action–intentions, the way things are done, these things can change everything. Even the way a character walks can mean something profound about who they are.
June 8, 2015 — 3:58 PM
MarMar says:
I have this one character, not a main one, but important to the story’s cause. Greyworth is a warrior and a scholar. He’s tall and broad. When he’s not fighting or training others to fight, he’s helping decipher texts/prophecies. He’s usually super cheerful, childlike, and at times unconventional, so people around him will describe him as “a little bit mad.” But beneath the cheer and madness is an intelligent man who cares for his friends and wants them to be the best version of themselves. To that end, he uses his “madness” to get people out of their comfort zones and push them in the right direction.
Few people know how much he actually does around the camp/for his friends, and some have vocalized that they don’t understand why the leader keeps him around. However, since he’s huge and an excellent warrior, no one has the guts bother him. And his friends do care for him despite his madness. I think sometimes they think they’re the ones looking out for him, but it’s really the other way around most of the time.
June 8, 2015 — 12:58 PM
MarMar says:
My struggle with this character is that since he’s not the MAIN character, he’ll just end up being for entertainment and people will miss his purpose. I don’t want him written off because of his exterior.
June 8, 2015 — 3:13 PM
Meredith says:
Oh, wait, here it is. Sorry–this didn’t show up the first time I was here.
I have a heck of a time developing my “supporting” characters to the extent that I’d like sometimes too (especially in my current WIP)…so I hear you here!
Some random thoughts:
From what POV is your story written? Are we able to get into Greyworth’s head at all, or is POV limited to another character (or characters)? If being in his head is an option, a scene or two from that POV might be an option for showing the reader that there’s more to him than meets the eye, so to speak.
June 8, 2015 — 3:22 PM
Meredith says:
MarMar,
Greyworth sounds like a fascinating character–what concerns do you have for his development that you would like discussed here? 🙂
June 8, 2015 — 3:16 PM
MarMar says:
Hey Meredith!
I’m mainly narrating the recruitment of a couple of younger soldiers who are going to be a part of Greyworth’s company. Although he doesn’t have a formal rank, the leader relies on him for his scholarly inclinations (and he’s related to someone even more famous in battle). Throughout the story they’ll have chances to observe him, and he really wants them to succeed, case and point on using his madness to get people out of their comfort zones. At first it’s little things, like saying hello, dragging them to meals with him, pushing them into the middle of some gathering of people, or putting a weapon into their hands before they can say no. They find him annoying.
I’m hoping to somehow make his importance to the story more obvious towards the end, but I’m finding that the more I write him into the story, the more I discover that he keeps up his cheerful exterior unless he absolutely can’t.
That’s where the struggle comes in. He’s amusing, he annoys the main characters, and that’s cool. But will others recognize and understand his purpose?
June 8, 2015 — 3:48 PM
portlandorange (@portlandorange) says:
Greyworth’s reminding me a little of JK Rowling’s Dumbledore, but without the recognized, established professional rank that Dumbledore gets to enjoy. Can this Meyers-Briggs-based description of the Teacher ENFJ temperament help reveal how he contributes to everyone’s success – maybe through a public speech?
TVTropes’s Eccentric Mentor role may also apply. He sounds like someone I’d really like to spend time with on the page!
June 8, 2015 — 4:12 PM
MarMar says:
I never actually read Harry Potter (unfortunately, I wasn’t allowed growing up and now I’m too busy) so I couldn’t say. But I’ll check those out, thanks!
June 9, 2015 — 12:21 PM
Meredith says:
Thanks for expanding…it sort of makes me wonder *why* Greyworth stays cheerful, and if he is using that as a facade to cover up some underlying issue or motivation. Is he this way with all the new recruits that are brought into the company, or is there something special about these particular characters that makes him sees the importance of fostering/pushing them?
June 8, 2015 — 7:52 PM
MarMar says:
Well…he did witness something horrible as a child, and it kind of unhinged him.
But these recruits are special because they’re identified as having important roles in a war-prophecy, but they’re not very confident in their abilities. That’s why Greyworth cares about them, but they will sort of become friends later, too.
June 9, 2015 — 12:27 PM
sheltonkeysdunning says:
Catholicism is heavily ritualistic. (an observation, not an attack) As faith goes, it’s seeped in centuries of doctrine, with elaborate ceremonies marking all the major events in a person’s life in ways that solidify the individual in the community. I say this because Luc seems trapped, yes? Despite his fears and his self-loathing, Luc can still find comfort and therefore a small freedom in the RITUAL of his faith. Slaves used Christianity to subvert and misdirect their slavers and right under their very noses. Instead of making it his weakness, make the structure of it his strength, his private defiance. The PROCESS of the prayer, all of those things are something Luc has complete control over, even if it’s within the confines of a morality that condemns his sexuality. And, finding some aspect of the ritual of something maybe Arrigo does for the paranormal world, showing Luc that the little control he does have in his caged world can translate into this other world where there is more control could be all the fire he needs to take the first step on that journey to be free of his shackles. And then the GED is a stepping stone, and not an end goal.
Make sense?
Just a thought. I think it’s doing abuse victims a huge disservice to portray them as weak. To survive the day in, day out of abuse, it takes a lot of inner-strength and energy, just to wake up everyday.
June 8, 2015 — 1:21 PM
sheltonkeysdunning says:
This started out for Jana Denardo, don’t know how it ended up here…
June 8, 2015 — 1:23 PM
Jana Denardo says:
Thanks for this. Yes, Catholicism is and this is a very good observation. I can use this. Arrigo makes that point about not being weak to Luc more than once.
June 8, 2015 — 2:28 PM
sknicholls says:
Setting a scene or two where he confronts his father, or another ancillary character, might help. I had a character once who was horribly afraid of an abusive step-mother, but whacking her once with the bunk bed ladder and the fights she had with a bully showed she wasn’t a hapless, hopeless submissive.
What does he want to use his GED for, does he have aspirations beyond the High School equivalency?
June 8, 2015 — 1:23 PM
sknicholls says:
Jillian, a nurse, had clairvoyant dreams about a serial killer at age seven. She’s thirty-eight, and the nightmares have started again, only this time she sees through the eyes of the killer instead of the victim. The character I’m struggling with is a man, Tony Sommers, who has come out of her past. They were friends when they were both in a group home in their teens.
He went from GA to CA as a teen, now he’s back in Atlanta. He’s down on his luck, looking for an apartment and Jillian helps him get settled. They develop a love interest. He’s an arrogant and remote former drummer who had a music production company that had been highly successful. He’s not likable (except to Jillian), and becomes suspect, but will ultimately be an unlikely hero.
He’s developed into a dark and secretive character. He has an arrest record, a drug habit, and an allegiance with musicians who are involved in a Satanic cult. I’m having problems giving him qualities that Jillian can find endearing.
June 8, 2015 — 1:47 PM
MarMar says:
I’m all for unlikely heroes! It sounds like a great read.
Perhaps part of Jillian’s attachment to Tony has to do with their friendship when they were in the group home. Does she notice his drug problem right away? When they’re together, can she still see pieces of him from before he was on drugs? Perhaps meeting Jillian again triggers a part of Tony that he thought he lost. I would suggest developing their history, even if it’s just because you need to know it.
As for his allegiance to Satanic musicians, this doesn’t mean he’s a Satanist himself. Maybe these people have a bad influence on Tony, but Jillian is a good influence, thus around her he becomes kinder, smiles, is more open, etc.
Sometimes when you meet a person from your past, you expect them to be the same. Perhaps Jillian discovers how Tony has developed as their interest for each other deepens, and she sticks around because she wants to help him. Maybe something happened when they were young to make Jillian believe that no matter what bad things Tony has done in his life, he is ultimately of character. He’s just lost.
The one question I have is, how does Tony feel about where his life has gone? Does he feed his addiction, and that’s all he cares about? Or is he at a point in his life where he wants to change? Because his attitude is the biggest factor. Arrogance can be a shield, hiding deeper emotions, but what is he hiding under said shield? Desperation, a desire to change? Or to stay the same? Does Jillian’s kindness spark a desire to change in him? Does her helping him get settled and staying in touch with him make him want to be kind to her? Or is he kind to her because he’s an addict and wants money for drugs?
I think when you know what Tony’s attitude is, you’ll be able to determine how he acts around Jillian. Does that make sense?
June 8, 2015 — 2:21 PM
Jana Denardo says:
It can be hard to make unlikable characters more likeable. As a reader I would want to know what it is Jillian finds likeable about him. What is making her look past his bad parts and see him as someone worth her time? Is he still using drugs? Does she want to help him with this? Does she still see him as the young man she used to know, blind to what he has become? Does he drop his arrogance around her? Is he trying to help himself and get back on his feet or is he wallowing around just using her to help himself?
June 8, 2015 — 2:32 PM
Cari Hislop says:
If he’s likeable only to Jillian then she must see a side of him that no one else is allowed to see. There must be a reason she believes in him, why she likes him. Maybe he feels safe with her so he reveals his own needs somehow and she fulfils them.
Because the relationship is grounded on a shared past where they were friends the romance aspect is probably going to creep up on both of them. You can care about someone and then fall in love over time, but it isn’t going to be obvious at first. It’s an emotional weaving…there will be shared moments where they laugh together…where they help each other (could be emotional or physical)…where they support each other (clearly this does happen)…eventually they end up in circumstances where they see each other anew…instead of friends they’ll see each other as a romantic possibility. The qualities she finds endearing about him may only come out as the story unfolds…or as we find them in situations where he reveals himself. Some characters can be so secretive (even from their authors!). It’s very unhelpful, but if they want their story told they will eventually remove their masks. 🙂
June 8, 2015 — 6:08 PM
Dianna Gunn says:
I’ve been having a really hard time getting into the head of this prince, Aiken. He at first appears to be the bad guy–he kills his mother to take the throne–but he’s really just a pawn. He’s actually not eligible for the throne because he didn’t gain magic, so he’s essentially found a look alike who will do the necessary royal rituals for him.
He’s only recently returned home after 4 years studying under a “private tutor”–this is part of a ruse so nobody outside the family knows he can’t do magic–and he’s become a bitter asshole, but for some reason he’s got a thing for my MC. She’s definitely a beautiful young woman, but I know there’s more to it, and I can’t figure out what. She’s spent most of her life in the castle as a ward of the Queen, so they took very early lessons together, but he hasn’t really had a connection with her since before his father died–6 years before my story.
So why would he be smitten with her when he comes back? She basically refuses to speak to him because she’s been intensely traumatized by the Queen while he’s been away.
June 8, 2015 — 3:44 PM
curleyqueue says:
Does your MC have magic? If so, could she represent all he cannot have? Is he in a position to use her position (if a ward to the Queen even has this) to further himself, through marriage or other alliance? Maybe he’d start with less-than-pure motives that change. Or she alone could discover the fact he cannot practice magic- yet does not destroy his ruse. Then she’d be a trusted friend…also, I wonder if there’s some way to tie them in the back story (related to his father’s death??)
Good luck- sounds like a fun tale!
June 8, 2015 — 4:19 PM
Dianna Gunn says:
She doesn’t have magic. In fact, she ends up taking the kingdom over in pretty much the same way because Aiken turns out to be a lot more insane than anyone realized–but in reality the actual prince has been arrested and the doppleganger is running stuff.
Oh and his mother killed his father, so none of that tying in. But my MC could discover him, although I have to figure out how. It does have potential though.
June 8, 2015 — 10:10 PM
Meredith says:
Okay, here’s mine:
My problematic character, Aren, is an 18yo female. Genre is sci-fi (may fall under the YA heading, since most of my characters are mid-to-late teens). She is one of my two “main” characters (they share narration throughout the novel). To throw out some background, she is from a planet with a strict caste system in place, where women are subordinate to men, almost like property, and are expected to follow the rules and be “proper.” Aren lives on an isolated colony world with her family (her very traditional, distant mother; her strict father; her 16yo brother who is the “favored” child since he’s male, and her 18yo adopted sister, whom she loves and protects but has a hard time relating to). Aren does her best to buck her society’s restrictions: she’s an out-and-out rebel, mouthy as hell, hot-headed and willing to fight just about anybody if she thinks she’s right, and an embarrassment/ thorn in her parents’ sides, but she’s pretty much stuck where she is. She’s impulsive and frequently acts before she thinks, even though she’s quite intelligent. She’s frustrated with her life and how it’s all “planned out” for her, but lacks any options or real escape routes. Things become interesting when her colony is attacked, and she finds herself (with a quirky group of friends) more or less on her own and needing to rescue her family.
The problem I have with Aren is keeping her from being *just* a tough girl with a smart mouth, and keeping her likable for the reader, enough so that they want her to succeed. Sometimes I feel like Aren’s friends in their “supporting” roles are more accessible to the reader then she is. My other “main” character is easy for me to make more multifaceted, but I struggle with Aren being “flat” at times.
June 8, 2015 — 4:02 PM
MarMar says:
Hi Meredith,
Aren sounds like she has a lot of potential.
A suggestion: Maybe you could tap in to her relationships with her siblings a bit more. What are they like, how do they feel about each other? Why is Aren protective of her adopted sister and why can’t she relate to her? What is her brother like? Is he a big fat jerk who enjoys the attention, a nice guy who just accepts the norms, does he have good relationships with the women in his life?
Another suggestion: Aren’s anger and impulsive nature are an important part of the story, yes. But as we know, that’s not all a character is. What makes her happy and giggly? Sad and confused? Small and insignificant? Loved and important? Does Aren even know what makes her feel other emotions besides anger? It’s a journey for the both of you.
Maybe you could try exploring those feelings when she has her adventures? A change in one’s environment or attitude can often shed light on past experiences, how you felt in the moment, and how you feel about it in the present.
June 8, 2015 — 4:17 PM
sheltonkeysdunning says:
Does Aren’s family need to be strict and distant? I’m only asking because if she needs to save her family, how or why would she go about doing it if they keep her in the box that she rebels from. Why would your readers root for her to win?
There needs to be some tenderness in the family, something anchoring her to the need to save them. Otherwise, I don’t know about you, but if it were me, I’d be gone as soon as I save up enough money to buy passage off the planet.
Just a thought.
June 8, 2015 — 7:59 PM
Elizabeth Marling says:
I think I have been in your shoes. You create circumstances for the character and at a certain point you experience a kind of buyer’s remorse. I know for me it happens when all of a sudden my character can’t do something because it wouldn’t make sense, because she was raised this way, or wouldn’t know some crucial info, or has obligations to answer to person A and B and C, and so on. Your commitment to the logic and truth of the world you created is admirable, and you shouldn’t feel discouraged if it takes a little time to work through these problems. When the writer works through the problems a character faces in their world without using tricks or false logic or magic, THAT makes relatable stories, relatable characters, and good books.
Based on her culture, it would make sense for Aren to hide her true self because it is customary for women in her society to be quiet and submissive. She would have to develop a good “poker face” and hide her true feelings, which are actually quite fiery. How is that boring? Spy stories aren’t boring. Same idea. If the reader knows that Aren is struggling just to fit in and not say or do something that will get her in trouble nearly all the time, that would make her very sympathetic. She feels like an imposter in her own community. She must have days when she asks herself why does she have to be different? Why can’t she just be happy with life the way it is? There is a lot of conflict there. She must ask herself what she is ultimately going to do. Run away? Submit to marriage?
I have to agree strongly with MarMar that having someone who is a secret mentor for Aren within her own society would be one effective way to explain how she has been able to nurture her true self in secret while the other women haven’t been quite as successful at it. A peer just wouldn’t be enough in this situation. It would have to be an elder, parent, older sibling, etc. Even a mentor figure from another culture would work if done correctly. This could tie in with Aren’s struggles in other ways too. Was she chosen by this person? Does she know why? As a teen, I would think that she may be angry with this person for making her life harder than it has to be until her differences become useful within the story.
June 8, 2015 — 8:54 PM
Meredith says:
Thanks MarMar, sheltonkeysdunning, and Elizabeth for your ideas about Aren–you’ve given me some new angles and some stuff to chew on. I enjoy the mentor idea…and I have a character who might work for that. Great comments from this group. 🙂
June 10, 2015 — 8:44 AM
Miri says:
I have a character to throw before the (astoundingly friendly and helpful) wolves.
Her name’s Malvoli. She’s the daughter of high nobility at a royal court, and the sister of the court’s first ambassador to their tense-and-getting-tenser neighboring country, a post from which no one actually expects her to return. The court is extremely scholarly and bureaucratic, and everything must be written and edited and voted on before it can happen; the vote to send her sister Gheleli to “secure a peace treaty” (and get out of the way of her enemies at court) had to be unanimous, and Malvoli, who could have been the one dissenting vote, abstained instead, so she feels like she’s allowed her sister to be sent to die.
All well and good, but I need to figure out what’s going on in her life besides guilt. Her “job” at court is academic writing, and I’ve got some notion of her digging in the piles of records to find out what happened to the last ambassadors, as well as getting into a pseudonymic slap-fight with another writer at court (who turns out to be Gheleli’s bitterest rival, the woman that everyone assumes will be queen one day, when the unpopular but absolutist prince finally deigns to marry). I’m just lost on the specifics. I’ve set up court-as-academia, but other than research and writing, what to people DO in academia?
June 8, 2015 — 4:09 PM
portlandorange (@portlandorange) says:
“Academia plus royal-court intrigue” sounds like a really promising combination! The overlap between those kinds of jealousies makes it the most natural mashup idea I’ve heard since I found Max Gladstone’s “dying gods plus business world” Craft Sequence here on this blog.
Maybe a scholarly book on royal courts could help generate academic action or conflict ideas, especially regarding diplomats? I’m reading Lucy Worsley and Anne Somerset books for my own WIP, and they’re both amazing.
It’s an *extreme* thing to do, but you can rely on academics to commit one or more murders per book in Amanda Cross mysteries (nom de plume of Prof. Carolyn Heilbrun of Columbia). This Goodreads page has a list of other academic mysteries; maybe scanning through the book teasers will turn up ideas?
And in a nod to TV researchers, I also love how the Bletchley Circle miniseries makes it incredibly dramatic for four women to sit around, pore over facts and figures, analyze them, and talk things over until they arrive at a big breakthrough in the narrative.
June 8, 2015 — 5:50 PM
curleyqueue says:
This sounds like intricate world building, which I admire and enjoy, yet people in a highly-educated society are still people, and for me, that’s where the true drama lies. With all those rules there’d certainly be lots of looking for short-cuts (back-door bargains and alliances, partnerships that prove false, political/personal betrayals) and tons of opportunity for scandal using the very things that hold the society high.
What is Malvoli’s goal- get her sister returned safely? Chance the society’s rules so this kind of thing won’t happen again? Coincidentally, I’ve got a character in quite similar circumstances and I’m finding the more I identify what she needs to happen the more everything else falls into place. Happy writing!
June 8, 2015 — 6:43 PM
Len Berry says:
Perhaps Malvoli is assembling summations of previous ambassadors and their activities. Her pseudonymic slap-fight could be with another person in court who has a dissenting view on what some previous ruling means.
Just look at how scientific researchers treat each other. Look at the Edison-Tesla rivalry; they started as friends and ended up the bitterest of enemies.
From what you’ve said, guilt isn’t Malvoli’s life, even though it might drive some of what’s going on in the story. Why did she abstain in that vote? What was the vote on exactly? I would say her abstention could be a way for her to get at her rival.
This could be really awesome once you’re done with it.
June 8, 2015 — 9:43 PM
Cari Hislop says:
A court-as-academia…interesting setting! Before coming up with what your characters do you need to know what they value. Academia may ideally be about gaining and sharing knowledge, but humans are humans. This may seem weird, but I recommend reading Dorothy L Sayer’s murder mystery Gaudy Night as an excellent glimpse of Academia life. Sayers was one of the first women who earned a degree from an Oxford college so she was steeped in Academia (this was a woman who years later learned Medieval Italian just so she could translate Dante’s Divine Comedy). Gaudy Night is set mainly in an Oxford women’s college in the 30’s right before WWII…it might give you some ideas (it might not). One of my brother-in-laws is in “Academia” and the politics is never ending. There’s always someone willing to lie, cheat and steal other people’s work to get money, fame or glory. We like to think academics are above such silly things, but most of them aren’t. It just depends on what each individual values. I also recommend a biography on Isaac Newton. Mathematician of Mathematicians…he must have been boring right? Uh no,…he was bizarre! I suspect most academics are unique individuals because they tend to think and live outside the box.
June 8, 2015 — 6:39 PM
jrupp25 says:
Read your first chapter. It’s great and I would be hooked. I only caution you about the following paragraph. It gets a little like info dump. Instead, work this stuff in later. For this first chapter, focus on the conflict (which you do quite nicely).
“Now, your atmosphere is so polluted you have to filter it in order to breathe. This killed your forests, and so you ionized your oceans, in order that your filtered atmosphere would have some O2 in it. That remarkable decision, along with your polluted rivers and the melting of your poles, killed your seas, along with everything in them. Now, nothing lives on Anankera that is not artificially supported. In a sense, your people have terraformed your world, but in reverse.”
June 8, 2015 — 6:46 PM
elctrcrngr says:
Yeah, I see what your saying. World-building is tough to do without info-dumping, I need to remember I have the whole first quarter of the book to work in detail like this. Thank you.
June 9, 2015 — 2:14 AM
Len Berry says:
Margot Dark lives in a future Paris where the air is toxic and only the wealthy have any happiness.
Margot is committed to helping those around her after seeing innocent suffer during the oil wars she was drafted to fight in. Though she still lives under the rule of the conquering Chamber of Commerce, she hopes to escape to another planet, even though a ticket off-world costs more than she makes in a decade.
When she’s presented with a missing persons case, Margot has to confront the ruling class as well as her need to help others or escape earth.
June 8, 2015 — 9:56 PM
Dianna Gunn says:
I take it the conquering Chamber of Commerce isn’t the one she fought for?
She could get in a lot of trouble confronting the ruling class, but if she’s been living under the rule of a government she fought against and lost a lot to, she might not care. How much has she lost to this government? It might give her the extra fuel she needs to flaunt the rules to do whatever it takes to help people.
The way you phrased the last part immediately made me think of something like the Underground Railroad, an illegal system people use to escape.
Is she pursuing the missing persons case because she’s a cop or Private Investigator? Or is it somebody she used to know who went missing? Why is she looking for them?
June 8, 2015 — 10:16 PM
Len Berry says:
The Chamber of Commerce conquered France, then drafted Margot. She still lives under their rule.
Margot is hired to look into the disappearance of a middle-aged couple. The police won’t look for them because they have to be financially commissioned to take on most of their cases. They’re the police for the rich and the super rich; otherwise, they’re social bullies.
Just looking into this case is going to get Margot into trouble.
June 9, 2015 — 12:12 AM
Dianna Gunn says:
That info tells me she probably already has issues with the police, at least a disrespect for them, especially if before the Chamber of Commerce invaded (I’m assuming in her lifetime) the police were a force that actually helped the common people, not just the rich people.
So she’s probably really, really bitter. And I can see her being the kind of person who just takes big risks without really thinking it through, because it doesn’t sound like she has that much to live for.
June 10, 2015 — 2:20 PM
Len Berry says:
Margot is bitter. She also has a bad case of “it sucks, but that’s the way it is.”
However, there always comes a point in everyone’s life where they say enough is enough. In this story, Margot reaches that point. Then she hits the risk taking point and the big risk taking point after that.
She does remember the police serving the people, not just the 1%. There are people she cares about, but she’s not an altruist or a crusader.
June 10, 2015 — 5:55 PM
Savannah Bard says:
Alright, the character I’m having trouble with is the female MC(1 of the main trio- the other two are male. My WIP deals with the main three characters and their somewhat blurred perception of the line between what is considered good and what is considered bad, each for their own reasons. They aren’t siblings, but treat each other as business partners and are thick as thieves. Luka, the youngest of the trio, is still learning his way about the world throughout their misadventures. A. is the oldest of the trio. He does what he deems necessary according to the situation they’re in, and holds his own judgement in the highest esteem.
So there’s them. My female MC, Maria, is the middleground, the instigator. She’d the one who flips the mien of a room to opposite ends of the spectra. This is the result of being sandwiched between the two forceful personalities of her partners. She has to hold her ground, but also has to be able to bring them back to reality and keep them from the population’s (and each other’s throats). My problem isn’t so much with her but how to present her, to thread the line between the two extreme cliches of a girl who doesn’t give a rat’s ass and the loving, tenderhearted sister-figure. I’d like ya’ll’s opinion and perhaps some tips if you have them. If you’d like more info on her, the story, or her fellow MCs I’ll give upon request. Thanks!
June 8, 2015 — 10:35 PM
Elizabeth Marling says:
I assume you are familiar with the term “Freudian slip?”
You call Maria the “instigator” instead of the “mediator.” There is your answer. She is only pretending to be a peacemaker. In reality, she is manipulating the other two characters.
Personally, I find that way more interesting than some snarky, anarchist cliche or the proverbial mother hen. I guess the question is does that version fit into your story? She isn’t going to be the lovable tomboy anymore. What would happen if a young woman arrogant enough to believe she could get exactly what she wanted from two men who trusted her with no consequences be received by Luka and A?
Well, even if this is of no other use, it would make sure Maria holds her own in your story. If all she does is provide and ear and a shoulder for the two men, why even include her? The men folk go out and have adventures and then come home to tell her about them? I hate to say this, but if Maria doesn’t take any action in the story, she is really just an archetype and not a protagonist. In this case, you should focus on A and Luka and intentionally make Maria likable, kind of like Han Solo, because she is there to help and any extra info about her would confuse the reader.
June 8, 2015 — 11:17 PM
Laura W. says:
I agree with Elizabeth Marling — that take on Maria seems really interesting! If she sets them against each other, and they both come running to her separately for help and advice/to dish dirt on the other one, that means that she keeps control of both of them as well as the partnership. She can smooth over problems that she creates, and manage them that way.
June 9, 2015 — 12:12 AM
Elizabeth Marling says:
I hope you provided little detail about Margot as a challenge to others, because no one is that perfect unless they are about to experience a complete psychological collapse. Let’s review:
Margot was drafted, which means she was also an innocent who suffered during the oil wars. Who did she see suffer? Her fellow soldiers? Civilians? Was there a specific incident that happened to cause Margot to focus on helping others as a means to forget or find justice?
As for her role as a helper—what is the nature of this help? Does Margot see herself as a protector, a healer, one who provides comfort, an avenger, a counselor? Is she like Robin Hood, robbing from the rich to give monetary aid to the poor? The list of items she could steal is almost endless—medicine, food, vouchers, weaponry, basic supplies and tools. Does she have some kind of position or clearance she exploits to gather information for people who couldn’t otherwise get it, or to forge documents? Saying the protagonist helps people is like saying the protagonist gets injured. I’m writing a book about a man who gets framed for a crime he didn’t commit. Notes, please!
Lastly, what does Margot want most? Or is her challenge that she must decide what is most important and choose between two very important things (say, a ticket off world or buying a burrow for every family in a war-ravaged slum)? If her nation just lost a war, why would the winners come to her to find someone? Wouldn’t they want to install their own police force to make sure the recently conquered people didn’t stage a revolt?
Use the whodunnit framework by all means, if it makes the plotting easier, but you have some work to do before you decide which genre to use for your plot. I wouldn’t have replied if I didn’t see something here, though. Your description is the only one that gave me visual images of a post-apocalyptic world that were vivid. Just get into Margot’s head—change her into a guy if you need to, or a cyborg—just imagine her memories, what she sees and feels and thinks and I suspect you may have something good here. I am curious to find out what you create with Margot.
June 8, 2015 — 10:36 PM
Len Berry says:
I was trying to get across the essentials using the 100-word limit. 🙂
Margot isn’t perfect by any means. She’s essentially a private eye in this setting, she has poor and not-so poor clients, though she struggles to pay her staff and the bills.
She was drafted, yes. She saw innocents slaughtered by other divisions and, sometimes, her own. Margot tries to be level-headed. She doesn’t take jobs to kill people, and would much rather help–find lost things and people–if she can.
Everything in this setting works off licenses. You have to buy a license to determine the clothes you can wear. You have to buy a license to carry a guy–which is mandatory to have. You have to buy a license to own a business. You get the idea, it’s a bureaucratic nightmare.
Margot wants off this planet. She’s tired of smoking cigarettes just so the air won’t kill her. She’s tired of the misery around her.
Thank you for the compliment on the setting, Elizabeth. I’m quite proud of it. I have a draft already, one I’ve sent to several agents already. I’ve come just short of representation a few times now. I’m just wondering what I can do to make Margot more engaging.
June 8, 2015 — 11:27 PM
Elizabeth Marling says:
With hardly any information I feel like I can picture what this world looks like, and whether I am right or wrong that speaks to me and impresses me. Sorry if I skewered you a bit. I could tell you were being concise with your words, which means you are intelligent, and I wanted a reaction. As blunt as I was in my delivery, I did mean what I said about Margot.
Let me make sure I understand the new government. The public face is that everything is permitted (pun intended) with the right permit. The potential for deception is brilliant. Imagine someone spending years being told the paperwork is on the way and it never comes. The heaviest toll would be on people who are notoriously overlooked by society anyway–the elderly, the sick, etc. Even in our society, I could probably jiggle a set a keys and distract the average kid under 18 from a conversation with a grandparent. So much is out there about the tedium of bureaucracy but I can’t think of anything I have read that used the concept alone, without coupling it with something outright threatening (aka mind control in 1984) as THE weapon. It’s brilliant.
I have to say I dislike the private eye thing even more. Margot should do something that is a job within the world you have created. If she has a career that is a trope, its like she has one foot out the door. The reader will not want to live in this world. Margot doesn’t want to live in this world, either. There is the first thing they have in common. She can have an ordinary job, but doing it must reveal more detail about this place. A detective is in their own head too much I think. The reader won’t want to know what Margot thinks, they will want to know what she sees, hears and does.
I think the way you make Margot engaging is you have to confront the reality of the world you have created through her, and just let her be a real person. She is tired and sad and miserable. She clings to a dream of buying a voucher to get off the ruined world, and the fantasy sustains her because reality has nothing to offer this woman. Somehow she has formed a routine that makes life tolerable–and that has to be disturbed I think as the inciting incident. Given the trauma of her past, I don’t think she would seek this out, but maybe by the end she finds the part of herself that used to stand up and fight for what she believes in again. Just don’t be afraid to make her human. Don’t turn Margot into the Taylor Swift of dystopian future Paris. Unless you include a sideshow where she is a grotesque siamese twin fused to Katniss Everdeen and a hoard of onlookers hurl baguettes and rotten apples handed out by Roman Polanski. In which case I would like an advanced copy of that page for framing, please.
Wishing you well in your endeavors,
Elizabeth
June 9, 2015 — 8:05 PM
Len Berry says:
Elizabeth, thank you for the kind words and the wishes. I think you’re mindset is close to what I have in mind for the audience of this book. Also, I appreciate the skewering, so there’s no need to apologize for it.
Your pun is well-placed. Money is everything in this setting. Most people don’t have French francs, much less the powerful dollars used by the Chamber of Commerce. There are a ridiculous number of forms that someone has to fill out just to hire Margot. She has to fill out even more forms if she has to fire her weapon.
I have a side character who is one of these overlooked people. A homeless boy with mismatched clothes who regularly asks Margot for cigarettes–remember, if you don’t smoke in this setting, the toxins in the air will kill you.
While she might be a small business owner, Margot doesn’t have much on cash. Ammunition might be cheaper in bulk, but she’s got so little extra money that she has to buy shells and bullets one at a time. She’ll check street vendors and state depositories, in the hopes of being able to make ends meet.
I think there’s an inherent assumption, given Margot’s being a PI. Most people see that description for a lead character and think, “This is going to be in first person.” This book is written in third person.
Since a lot of the plot hinges on Margot being an investigator, I don’t know what other occupation I could give her. I’ll gladly take suggestions.
June 9, 2015 — 8:43 PM
Elizabeth Marling says:
Well, your plot centers on an investigation–that doesn’t mean that Margot must be an professional investigator to take in interest in the disappearance of the people.
I imagine Margot as a person who is hoarding every penny to buy a ticket to escape her dismal world. Starting a business implies a person has hopes and initiative. In the world you describe a person would have to have a lot of resilience and dedication just to make it through the permit process. After the oil wars, Margot would already need to heal emotionally. I just don’t see it. Sorry, still not sold on the private eye even in third person.
Now, to my original point; the plot of your story is about a woman who investigates a disappearance. That is solid. You have a protagonist who probably has stopped caring about pretty much everything, but she cares about these people. Why? Does she see something disturbing? Is her own well being threatened in some way by this event? Think outside the box.
Just off the cuff: What if a new government policy will impose penalties on Margot and her neighbors if a census count is two people short?
Maybe Margot is a skilled looter and forger who sneaks into the homes of people about to die and steals their permits from hidden safes, false floor boards, etc. She could find something in the house of the missing couple that spurs her to action. Something they shouldn’t have? Something she has never seen before?
What’s the deal with the boy? Now I definitely don’t like the whole detective thing. Dangerously close to a cop, and that is way too cutesy to even suggest in a book. Do you want your name on the cover of “Cop and a Half III: Paris is Burning”? DO YOU????
June 9, 2015 — 10:16 PM
Elizabeth Marling says:
Comment above for Len Berry.
June 8, 2015 — 10:37 PM
Len Berry says:
I love how you’re challenging me and my story.
Perhaps I should explain a little more about the mystery Margot is pursuing, since one of the more important characters is her client, Amelie. The missing couple are Amelie’s parents.
The Upper Class, the members of the Chamber of Commerce, are called the Whites by some people in this setting. They have altered themselves genetically to look pure and perfect, to not suffer from the toxic air to any degree. They have asserted their ideology into every part of life they feel like reaching. Abortion? Not only is it a crime, it’s punishable by death. Low taxes? There aren’t any, thanks to the licenses. The Whites even live in the Upper City–a series of connected flying skyscrapers that spew tons of pollutants just to stay afloat.
The inherent problem with these ubermensch is that they made themselves too well. All incredibly fair-skinned with platinum white hair. They have “pure” genetics, but they are all too similar with each other. Which is why they need new genes to refresh the gene pool. Of course, the people they choose for this have to be capable of things that are beneficial to the Chamber of Commerce. They are corporate persons after all.
So, they abduct people and they try to train them to be good little members of the Chamber of Commerce. It doesn’t always work, so they make sure the people they pick have kids right away.
Amelie and her mother both have fair features, which the Whites prefer. And Margot has dirty blonde hair, an eye for details, and a military background.
I don’t think I’m going to convince you that Margot needs to be a detective, the only form of justice the lower classes can hope to count on. I don’t see a firm way to change it without throwing out the whole story and starting over.
Maybe I can put up pictures in her office, images of rockets that go to other worlds. Maybe I can hang little reminders that there are other worlds, something to give her some hope that it might all be worth it.
June 10, 2015 — 12:30 AM
Catkins says:
She should work for the government. She should be part of the justice system but be employed by the government. You say she has a “that’s the way it is” attitude. This would be perfect, she works her patrols, she completes her leg work while the real ‘police’ live in luxury.
Even a dystopia would need some sort of city watch to keep order. Margot is not a social climber, I see her as someone who once was a revolutionary but now just slogs on to achieve her own goal of escape.
I think she is told to clear up after the disappearance of this couple and then is re-motivated to do something to change the rotten society she lives in.
June 22, 2015 — 1:58 PM
Len Berry says:
Maybe I could play up the difference between an Investigator and the official police. It might show just how much conflict is under the surface–not just in the society, but in Margot as well.
A lot of what you’ve just described is quite similar to the structure Blanc Noir currently has.
I’m feeling like I might be close to the right track.
June 23, 2015 — 1:54 AM
Ryan S says:
Okay uh…first time that I’ve ever tried commenting on one of these things so…here it goes I suppose.
I have given my WIP to several people, all avid readers, a few teachers of mine, and one thing that their comments seem to have in common is that one of my main characters (who is female) does not really seem like a very realistic or strong character. As a member of the male gender, I do find it easier to write from a male perspective, but this characters POV is very essential to the story. I suppose what I’m really asking for is advice on how I can make her a stronger character so, suggest away!
June 8, 2015 — 11:05 PM
Wendy Christopher says:
Hmmm… not really a lot to go on here, m’dear! 😉 Without knowing anything about the story she’s taking part in, I can’t really suggest anything specific, but I’ll try chucking out some general things and see if any of it is helpful. Beware, the following may contain gender-generalisation…
Women often tend to analyse their feelings and decisions more deeply than men do; they’re more likely to consider the effects their words and actions might have on other people as well as themselves. They also often interpret more meanings into things said and done by others than might be obviously there.
Rampantly generalising example alert:
Character offers a person a nice cake, person says “no thanks, I’m not hungry.” Man-character might think “oh, okay then,” and eat it himself. Woman-character on the other hand would most likely think “What’s wrong with him, is he ill? Is something bothering him, that’s making him lose his appetite? Maybe he’s on a diet – why would he be on a diet? Who’s told him he needs to diet, is he worrying about his looks now? Something’s wrong, I just KNOW it..!”
In other words, one way to make a female character stronger is to actually let the reader know what her motivations are for her ideas and actions, more of the time than you would with a male character. When the reader is ‘in her head,’ show through internal dialogue the thought processes going on that lead to any decisions she makes. When she talks to other characters she’s more likely to express opinions about what’s happening and try to justify her reasons for doing and saying what she does and says. But at the same time, that doesn’t mean she’s an open book, brain-farting all her deepest fears and insecurities at the drop of a hat. She’ll be well aware that doing so will make her appear ‘weak,’ so she’ll try and paint it over with ‘logic’ to look less wussy and girlyfied. So when she cries in front of a guy WITHOUT the intention of manipulating him into feeling sorry for her/guilty, she won’t say she’s ‘upset’ because her feelings are hurt, she’ll say she’s ‘angry’ because someone’s been a total jerkface (or something similar.) In fact, in arguments women often DO end up crying out of frustration and anger rather than distress or hurt feelings, because they don’t feel like the other person is understanding the emotions churning around inside them.
Hope that helps a bit 🙂
June 9, 2015 — 9:01 AM
Isa McLaren (@IWMcLaren) says:
Perhaps you need to stop thinking of her as a female character and just as a character. The writing behind the character isn’t gender-specific.
June 9, 2015 — 10:55 AM
Wendy Christopher says:
Very true, Isa – probably more true than anything I previously said. 🙂
Ryan, are the people who are telling you your female character doesn’t seem strong or realistic citing any specific examples of moments where they feel this is happening? Or is it more a case of “I dunno, I’m just getting this general vibe…” kind of thing? ‘Cause THAT’s what you really need; specifics, like “when she says/does this…” and “in that bit where the thing happens…” If they can’t nail their niggles down to even that much… well, to be honest I’m not sure their advice is much help to you anyway. You need folks with sharper eyes and more sensitive antennae to take a look at your work and give you some feedback you can work with.
June 10, 2015 — 11:13 AM
Fred G. Yost says:
As a cis-male, I’m also more comfortable writing things from a male perspective. Because I’ve found it challenging, most of my main characters have been females in the stories that I’ve written lately. My approach is to write the character as gender neutral as possible, at first, and tweak the personality of the character as I go along. Males and females aren’t as different as most men (including a younger me) usually think.
The other suggestion I have is to talk to women (if you aren’t already doing so). If you’ve got some close female friends, tell them about your story. Ask them what kind of reaction they would have in the situation they are in. Ask them what they would do and what they would feel. Read stories written by women. Read op-ed pieces and blogs. Follow them on twitter. Listen to them. Approach all of these interactions with as open a mind as possible.
Most importantly (in my mind), make sure you’re writing a character and not a set piece. What’s her background? If she makes choices that could be perceived as weak, why is she making these choices? What motivates her? How would you react to meeting a person like your character in the street? (if the answer is “she’d be a dream come true” or “she’d be perfect” or “she’d be terrible and I’d never want to talk to her” then you should make sure she has a damn good reason for being that way)
… wow. That was a long, kind of preachy, rant from a guy that may or may not write female characters worth reading. So, uh, take all of that with a grain of salt. But seriously, listen to women, and let them inform your female characters. If nothing else, listen to them if they tell you my advice is crap.
June 11, 2015 — 9:52 AM
Laura W. says:
I commented on a couple of them. Leaving…
Genre: fantasy. This character is pressured into a marriage of convenience when he’s 17 to his ex, who is pregnant with another man’s child. It’s not a loving marriage, but he does really like the kid. His wife is miserable and depressed, a combination of being left by her lover, having to marry the MC, and being poor enough to have to live with his mother. MC departs for the big city to get some training in magic; unable to afford a tutor, he joins the military as a healer. His ultimate goal is to earn enough money to be able to support a family and possibly move them to the city. (So while he has a special power, he uses it for a pretty mundane reason.) While he’s there, he finds his skills in high demand and ends up serving some powerful people, including the royal family. He has a crush on the princess — which he thinks may be requited — but the more he gets involved with the royals&co, the closer he gets to uncovering a conspiracy tied to the war. He is a very perceptive person and very much a people person. He suspects that the princess is a part of the conspiracy, but he doesn’t know how to prove it, and he isn’t sure he would want to if he could.
The problem I have with this character is that this is very much a story of a more-or-less-everyman who gets swept up in things out of his control. He makes decisions, motivates plot points, and has agency, but only within the confines of the larger conspiracy he’s unwittingly become a part of. It’s an intrigue plot, so it’s a bit slower, and some of that is OK in a slower plot, but…I don’t know if people will like a character or plot with a “swept up in things” sort of premise. He’s just a guy. A guy trying to make a living to support his family. He has a strong sense of duty and loyalty, but he can also be pretty immature even though he’s had to grow up quickly. If he has confused loyalties — like being in love with one woman while still married to his wife, or being conflicted about whether to pursue the conspiracy or not — I’m worried people will perceive him more as a hypocrite rather than a guy trying to figure out what the right thing to do is.
June 9, 2015 — 12:09 AM
Isa McLaren (@IWMcLaren) says:
When larger than life heroes take on super villains, it’s like Godzilla vs Mothra. We (the audience) don’t really care if Godzilla feels angst over its decisions, we’re just trying not to get trampled with the rest of the puny spectators. Be the spectator, the unwilling participant. Show us the futility of his actions, the confusion as he struggles to tell black from white in an increasingly grey world. These are the best stories.
June 9, 2015 — 10:52 AM
Fred G. Yost says:
You might want to have him worry about being a hypocrite. As more gets revealed, he should have to examine himself, his actions, and what he’s willing to turn a blind eye to. Depending on your story, either he’ll eventually do the right thing or he’ll choose survival and you’ll need the audience understand why he makes that choice.
June 9, 2015 — 2:01 PM
elctrcrngr says:
I think for this character to truly have agency he needs to grow from being “more-or-less-everyman”, into something more, a man who is a little more sure of what and who he wants in his life, and isn’t afraid to step on a few toes to get it. If he is swept up in events beyond his control, does he truly have agency?Hard to tell without actually reading the story, but he seems a bit wishy-washy and spineless from your description.
Of course, I need to remember, he’s only seventeen. What is the time span of this story? How old is he when he has to decide what to do about the princess?
June 9, 2015 — 2:38 AM
Isa McLaren (@IWMcLaren) says:
James Noss joined the army so he could get the education in information technology he wanted. He wasn’t prepared for the hell he fell into. Just when he’d given up hope, an avenging angel came to save the day. And nothing could prepare him for her.
He’s tall and lanky, always walking with his head bent over. He’s a whiz with hardware, able to coax intricate programs from stone knives and bear claws. Maybe one day he’ll meet someone who gets that reference. Until that time — hell, probably even after — he’ll be at Benedict’s side, fighting the good fight.
Concerns: the story is from Arden Benedict’s point of view (mostly). I want to show his loyalty (and unrequited love) without making the action-adventure into a gushy romance. They are part of an A-Team of sorts, with her as the leader. He’s the quietly funny computer expert.
June 9, 2015 — 10:48 AM
SC Rose says:
I like what I’m reading of him so far! I guess what I’d suggest here… Well, I don’t know if this is helpful, but what I would try to do is keep the focus more on them fulfilling their common goal. And if the story is told mostly from her POV, then you can keep your audience focused mostly on what she sees. If she’s bent on doing something other than find love, then she’s probably not going to really notice exactly why he’s so devoted to her. You can throw in little things that your audience will notice that makes *us* see that he loves her, but if she blows off those things, ya know, then that’s going to take the gush away. Your audience will be focused on what your characters are focused on. But throwing in those little hints will subtly hold them in the will they/won’t they suspense, without totally overpowering the rest of the story.
I think this sounds really interesting! I really hope to see it on a shelf someday!!
June 17, 2015 — 7:23 PM
Fred G. Yost says:
So, this might be a little late to get any feedback, but here we go. Thanks in advance for any help.
Redemption (Red) is a closed system AI in an android body that can pass for human. She’s from an experimental line that is not known to the general public. Three years before the start of the story, the original prototype for the mass produced androids killed their creator, and the general public rioted, and production of the android line was shut down.
Red’s first memories are from the night of the riots. She’s searching for answers about what happened that night, her life before, and how many of her line have survived. To search for answers, she and her partner (a roboticist that worked on a different line in the same company) have joined a group of bounty hunters primarily tasked with capturing androids that have run away and rogue scientists.
Concerns: Red’s a lesbian robot in love with a human, she has to deal with her own guilt at hunting her own kind, and not dealing with any of the prejudice because she can ‘pass’. She also has to deal with the existential free will vs programming debate, and the concern of what is gender to a machine. I’m not 100% sure how relatable she’ll be, and if I’m giving her too much to have to deal with. My alpha readers seem ambivalent, which has me concerned.
June 9, 2015 — 2:18 PM
jadefalcon14 says:
Reading your list of issues immediately brought this show to mind. If you are able to – watch all 6 episodes of this (even the 1st free access one is probably worth your time):
http://www.crunchyroll.com/time-of-eve/episode-1-akiko-452708
The way they handle the androids in this is heart-wrenching. And it touches on what androids can do, and what they “should” be able to do (can they create art? Do they feel? Free will?), which I think will be valuable to look at for your story. They are amazingly relatable to humans, which I think is the secret-sauce needed to make this sort of thing work.
Sorry it’s not a direct critique, but sometimes just seeing how someone else did it unlocks some good ideas on how to fix your own story/character issues.
June 10, 2015 — 3:57 PM
Fred G. Yost says:
Thanks! I’ll have to check it out this weekend, see what I can see.
June 10, 2015 — 4:57 PM
SC Rose says:
Hmm… I don’t think you’ve given her too much to deal with. What she’s got here seems like it would just naturally come with the circumstances that she is living in (which is a very interesting idea that I love, by the way!). I think you can make anyone lovable and relatable, even if what they’re dealing with is something people may struggle to understand. You just need to give her things that people can relate to on a different level. Thinking of other A.I. characters that I’ve loved (honestly, the A.I. in Interstellar was the only character I *truly* cared about lol I was so scared he was going to die), I think it boils down to their other human-like traits. One show I watched with my kids, which was surprisingly good, was the Green Lantern cartoon series. There’s an A.I. on there that you just end up really wanting to hook up with this guy… I know it’s a kid cartoon, but as an adult, I just really wanted them to hook up! I ended up binge watching the whole show by myself to see if they ever did… And of course not, because it’s a kids’ show. I was so disappointed. Anyway, so, I’d just start focusing on her other personality traits. What quirks is she developing the more she hangs out with people? What are her humor settings (Interstellar reference)? What is she growing to like or dislike? What things does she adore in the woman that she’s in love with? If you can make your audience fall in love with these other things about her, then you’ll have them really feeling for her and trying to understand the burdens she’s dealing with. Another example – well, he’s not a robot, but kinda – is Sheldon Cooper… He’s basically a robot, and the things he worries about most people don’t, but that Christmas episode when Penny gives him the napkin signed by Leonard Nemoy, I cried lol (and… I don’t know if I dare admit this but, I’ve never watched an episode of Star Trek lol). What I’m trying to say is, if you make them love the character, the audience will care about the things they do. Focus on the quirks and humor and the moments when their A.I. hearts shine through. Make sure these kind of things are thrown in and emphasized, and you’ll *make* your audience care about her burdens and seek to understand them.
Anyway, this is me pretending to know things. I hope it’s at least sort of helpful! You’ve got something really interesting here! You need to finish it!! Good luck!!
June 17, 2015 — 8:36 PM
jimbotz says:
Right! Forgot. Gotta give as good as you get, or something of that nature.
My character- man with insecurity issues(duh) because his wife isn’t pregnant. Thinks it’s his fault. Woe is me and all that. They find out it’s her, not him, that has the infertility issue. He tries to be supportive, but he really wants a family and it shows. The wife is so distraught she freaks and bails, blaming herself for his dispondancy. He calls, writes, throws letters attached to rocks and blows up city blocks(not really), tries everything to get her to listen. Long story short they end up sitting next to each other a year later at a circus that is more than it seems. But really aren’t they all?
There is a great deal of character development that happens, he really is t as boring as he seems in these few words.
He’s a nice dude, he really cares, OO!, and is a tattoo artist. Why do I fell bleh about him?
June 9, 2015 — 11:27 PM
Fred G. Yost says:
Ok, so feel free to take this with as many grains of salt as you like, but the biggest problem that I have with your description so far is that he seems like a character swept along with events instead of driving the change himself.
What’s driving him? He wants a family, but as soon as the wife leaves him, he desperately chases after her. Why is having a family so important? Why is being with her so important? He’s nice, yes, but is that why he’s trying to stay with her? What makes him special as a character? Does this barrage of questions feel like an interrogation? (I don’t mean for it to)
I’m honestly more interested in the wife as a character so far, and can see why you feel bleh about the guy. So I guess another question I have is, why is he so important to her?
June 9, 2015 — 11:52 PM
jimbotz says:
DuDe! You are totally right! She is the interesting one, huh? It’s a whole main-char-is-not-the-protagonist bit. Maybe out of my league, but perhaps I should write about HER story from his pov?
June 11, 2015 — 2:24 PM
Len Berry says:
Why does this man feel he has to have a family with this woman? Keeping his connection with her seems to be a strong part of his motivation, even though the two of them aren’t able to have children together. What is it about the two of them that makes this character feel they should be together?
Much of that echoes what Fred G. Yost asked, but that’s an important part of motivation.
Also, names. Having names for these characters will help them come to life.
June 10, 2015 — 12:38 AM
jadefalcon14 says:
Sounds like this guy has a bad case of oneitis – the wife is the only person in the world who could love him and now he’s f’d it up and he has to get her back or he’ll be…. FOREVER ALONE. What flaw makes him feel like this would be true? Fears of not being good enough, thinks he’s a monster, past traumas that he hasn’t let heal yet? That flaw might be exploitable for interesting effects.
The ending sounds interesting in that it’s mysterious (what happens at this weird circus?!) but also seems like a convenient out to push them together again. It’s totally your dude, but I almost want his growth arc to realize he doesn’t really want/need what he thought he did. And then we he runs into her again at this circus, he can be like “whatever, I got this figured out now.”
Sorry kinda late and now I’m rambling. Maybe this sparks some ideas or different paths to take with this guy.
June 10, 2015 — 4:44 PM
Wendy Christopher says:
Okay, I’ve shouted my mouth off on some people’s characters, only fair I give someone the chance to chew on one of mine 🙂 From my current w-i-p, a near-future sci-fi:
Weasel is an antagonist (but not THE antagonist) to my MC – although for a long time he claims to be an old and close friend of hers (story starts with her memory having been wiped and she meets him by chance later when she’s trying to discover who she used to be.) Skinny and in his mid-forties, he’s a known drug dealer and ‘fence’ for many criminal gangs, who only manages to stay out of jail because he’s also a ‘snitch’ for the police, trading immunity from arrest for secretly ratting out crime lords committing more serious offences than he does. So he’s wily, manipulative and resourceful, with an ability to charm the right people into doing what he wants – although he’s also handy with a switchblade if anyone tries to take him on in a fight.
Something I’ve recently noticed though, that’s a bit of a worry, is that, the way the story’s set up at the moment, everyone other than my MC quite blatantly hates him. Every character my MC either discusses him or meets him with regards him with contempt and bad-mouths him – even the local sex workers won’t ‘sell’ to him. Another character does help him, but grudgingly and only in exchange for cheap booze, and she is unspeakably rude to him throughout their meeting (witnessed by the MC.) My MC turns out to have been a sex worker before she lost her memory, so she’s ‘from his world’ if you like, and for a long time he’s very charming and helpful to her when she and her two friends really need help…
But I’m worried that, with almost everyone she meets talking about what a piece of scum Weasel is and not to get caught up with him… is she going to look like a prize chump for ignoring them all and not seeing how dangerous he is until it’s too late? I mean, he talks a good talk to her, but is there a tipping point where anyone with half a brain would say “but EVERYONE else in the world EVER is saying he’s a nasty douchebag, shouldn’t I be, like, listening to THEM instead?”
I know she’s supposed to be a little bit naive and soft-hearted, but I don’t want her coming across as a total dumbass!
June 10, 2015 — 11:57 AM
Fred G. Yost says:
So, my first thought was, if he’s as wily and charming, as everyone claims, why does absolutely everyone hate him? His betrayals might work better if they were few and far between, the kind of thing spoken in rumor and whispers instead of everyone knowing outright what a scumbag he is.
Also, it seems like a known snitch would be in far more danger from those his secrets he might betray than the cops. He might have even done a short stint in jail to keep up the appearance that he doesn’t snitch.
Otherwise, you need to give your MC a solid reason to ignore everyone else’s warnings. Maybe he pretends to be in the confidence of one of the criminal kingpins, and tells MC that everyone else is reacting to his undercover persona instead of the real him. Maybe he even pretends to be an undercover cop (if MC is more likely to trust a cop)
Hope that helps!
June 10, 2015 — 1:33 PM
Wendy Christopher says:
That’s a really good point about him doing jail time – I’ll find some way to incorporate that. He’s not really a ‘known’ snitch (the only non-police-related person who knows this about him is the MC, who finds out during the circumstances of first meeting him) but you’re right – after a while some people are going to put two and two together unless he covers his tracks in some way.
And now I look at it, most of the hating IS down to rumours about him rather than anything he’s personally done to them. The sex workers avoid him because their club managers/pimps have warned them off him, citing his drug dealing and telling them he’ll cheat them and abuse them. The policeman he snitches to hates him because he’s an old-school cop, and to him Weasel represents how corrupt the police force he was once proud to have been part of have become. in that they’re happy to protect the criminals who wreck individual’s lives (drug dealers like Weasel) in order to get the crime bosses who get rich through illegal but mostly business-harming activities like money laundering and faking official documents. And Ruby, the potty-mouthed and cranky old medicine woman is rude to ALL the crooks she deals with, because she has no respect for any of them. Weasel takes it from her because, in a weird way, he gets a kick out of the fact that she still does what he asks even while she verbally abuses him. (It’s like “yeah go ahead, you rip me a new one, bitch – but you still jump when I say jump, don’tcha?”) And with everyone else who hates or ‘lacks respect’ for him, Weasel tells anyone who’ll listen (including the MC) that it’s because he’s been unfairly badmouthed by shysters with an agenda who are clearly out to get him. One of his biggest traits is that he has an over-inflated sense of entitlement, believing that he should have whatever he wants simply because he wants it, and no-one has the right to prevent him.
The people that don’t hate him are the crooks he fences for and the addicts who buy from him, so maybe I could find some way of bringing some of those people in to show a balance. And the MC is DEFINITELY not more likely to trust a cop than Weasel at this stage in the story, so that should make her throwing in her lot with him more plausible.
Thanks so much for your feedback, this has given me lots to think about!
June 11, 2015 — 9:07 AM
jadefalcon14 says:
Fantasy setting – medium tech and high magic. Micheal is a graduate student of chemistry/botany at a university who is a bit of a black sheep in his family who comes from a military tradition. Based on a deal a distant relative made to a higher power, Michael is kidnapped one day when he’s visiting home and is transformed what is effectively a magically being so that he can serve as an avatar of the high power (who wants to save humanity from itself by using the avatars to change the course of history). This gives him some neat powers that manifest over time and makes him immortal (but not invincible), which is revealed early or not, depending on which draft I’m looking at. Some of the stuff this character has to do in service of the higher power is fairly benign (theft, spying) and some is pretty awful (assassination). He’s a pretty sensitive guy, so the awful stuff is shocking, especially as his work in school was aimed at using his knowledge to find early medical cures to safe people. Killing people seems anathema to what he wanted to do with his life (even though the long term plan these couple of deaths save tons of lives).
At first I had the transformation placed as a deal, but nothing the higher power could offer made the character want to do it (especially after the awful stuff comes into play). So I made it not a choice for him, but his still resisting. I’m smart enough to see that my character is smarter than me and is knowing I’m making him do things in service of the plot and not his own motivations. However I haven’t been able to find a motivation carrot sweet enough to avoid using the stick to force him through the beginning transformation part. So that is issue #1 (and corollary problem #1a – why doesn’t he just run away when it gets beyond the pale for him? I’ve got some tasty items to hold over his head to keep him in line for a while, but it feels cheap to use them – girlfiend’s life, his research, family).
Second issue is that because he’s a sensitive character made to do crappy stuff, I’m terrified he’s going to veer off the cliff of melodrama. It’s very possible people could be like “Why don’t you just off yourself and stop the suffering!?” Which I don’t mind the character flirting with that line, but don’t want the reader wishing he would just get it over with already.
June 10, 2015 — 4:27 PM
Fred G. Yost says:
I think you could still make the deal work, but you’d have to have the higher power be a bit dodgy on the details of the contract. Especially if Micheal is told that making this deal will have long term good impacts in a way that he couldn’t achieve through his studies. He could even have recently been thrown out school (money / family scandal / corrupt university officials) and that might make him more receptive to a deal.
If the higher power escalates the awfulness of the tasks slowly, Micheal may find it easier to justify everything up to the point until it goes too far, and the higher power could use general medical justification (cutting a rotten limb to save a body, etc) in order to keep him in line before pulling out the stick, especially if the stick is the result of Micheal’s inaction as opposed to the intervention of the higher power (whether that winds up being true or not)
Does that make sense / give you some ideas?
June 10, 2015 — 4:50 PM
jadefalcon14 says:
Thanks! I had tried something a little similar in an early draft with the deal, something along the line of now Micheal can have literally all the time in the world to work on his research and cures. However, at that time I didn’t have the higher powers MO all worked out and he (it??) was considerably more malevolent then, so I think that tainted the deal a bit. The higher power got a lot of overhaul, as I thought having him be more altruistic in his intentions would make the MC more likely to agree to/work with him on his plans.
I really like the idea of having Michael’s inaction be the stick for some cases – “See what even worse things happens when you don’t do what I ask?” is some pretty heavy shit to deal with and I think it serves the flavor of the story well.
June 11, 2015 — 12:26 PM
Lani says:
My character is a 25-ish year old female, the Empress of an alternate universe that ties in with our own. An outcast species even in the “alien world”, simultaneously envied and feared, she has learned to wear a mask. Her biggest problem is she puts too much pressure on herself to meet her expectations in order to escape the biases society has placed on her. Her empress side is stern and she can be, at times, a bitch when necessary.
She also has a soft side, though, and will put herself before her people.
The main character arc for her is learning to take off the “mask”, so to speak, and learn that she is herself before the Empress. (Being from the alien world, they do not have curse words as we do, so when she makes a human friend she learns the F word and says it quite often, mispronouncing it “fook”. Just a bit of not-so-depressive-stuff thrown in there XD)
June 10, 2015 — 4:31 PM
Fred G. Yost says:
Based on what you’ve typed, she sounds like a viable main character to me, though I don’t really see any of that as all that depressive. My initial impression was that this could very easily become a fish-out-of-water dramedy.
What concerns do you have for the character?
June 10, 2015 — 4:56 PM
Lani says:
Is a dramedy a mix between a comedy and a tragedy? If so then yes! If not then…I have to say I don’t know what that means haha.
My main concerns for this character (her name is Kim Lyland) is that she is 1. A bit too closed off. She has one close friend that she can confide in, but other than that she is on her own. I would like to see her shed the Empress title throughout the book and kind of just say “fuck it”.
2. For me in books, I like characters who feel really…alive. Like I could have an actual conversation with them. I guess I just want her to have some depth and for readers to care about her (so that way I can fuck her up and leave the readers sad…Muahahaha). I’m just worried that she’ll seem either like a Mary-Sue or too one-dimensional.
Thank to for the reply by the way 🙂
June 11, 2015 — 5:20 PM
Fred G. Yost says:
Dramady = Drama + Comedy, but yes, same general idea.
So, depending on the POV of your story, you could do a couple of things to make her more relatable.
If the story is from Kim’s perspective (1st/3rd person limited) then you can internalize the conflict between the two halves of her self, with something as simple as hinting at the conflict between her natural instincts and her trained ones or as extreme as having the ‘Empress’ persona be a ‘voice’ (of her mother/father/older sibling/etiquette trainer).
If your POV is another character watching her, then you could let them see the mask slip during an unguarded moment, early on, something that intrigues them enough to try and get close.
Here’s some questions that came to mind, reading over your description:
• You mention the alternate universe ties into our own. Does the primary arc take place in our universe or in hers, and if it is here, is Kim an envoy to this world, or an exile?
• How long has she been Empress?
• What events brought her to power at such a young age?
• Was she always intended for the throne, or was it suddenly thrust upon her (due to the death of an older sibling/cousin/etc)?
• If she has learned to wear the mask, I would assume there were specific incidences where being vulnerable cost her dearly. What were those incidences?
• Do you care about Kim?
• If so, why? If not, why should the readers care about her (other than so you can make them sad)?
You don’t have to answer those questions for me, but if you may want to answer them for yourself.
I think the most important part is that you need to explore the driving forces behind her motivations. The character’s I’ve cared the most about had lives before the stories they were in, and (depending on the final outcome of the story) lives after. Events can be hinted at that are never fully explained, and you might try writing a quick story about her life before your main story, just to give you solid insight into her background, and a reference point for yourself.
Hope this help!
June 12, 2015 — 11:39 AM
Lani says:
Thank you, this did help me a lot! Just to clear a bit up, it is 3rd person limited and the main storyworld is not ours but her’s, called the Alliance.
She came to power at such a young age by being voted in (her species is incredibly few in number and she is one of the most powerful of her kind.) So far in the time that the story is Occuring in we have not seen the mask slip, but it will effectively shatter later on in the story. (She kind of goes nuts and uses her “powers” associated with her species to explode an entire human military base.)
Thank you so much for your help.
June 13, 2015 — 9:27 PM
JTG says:
My character is a 25-ish woman who has lived all her life at the university and is quite a nerd. Her parents are both professors who had lived at the university for decades. She is very smart, but she is not really connected to the world outside university, and she is kind of a rat-lab. Magic is out of control in her world; anyone can use it by the results are not always what people expect. She doesn’t believe in magic; she is a scientist and an engineer and believes that magic is nothing more that very advance science that we don’t understand yet. She is always trying to figure out how magic works and turn it into science. She tells herself she wants to do this in order to help people with magic, but the real reason is that she loves a challenge.
She is asked to go to the capital of the country and help investigate some murders that seem caused by mages. She needs to be a know-it-all, arrogant, very shelf-reassured. She is not rude, but she doesn’t have a lot of empathy. She thinks everybody is as smart as her (result of living all her life at the university) so she uses complicated, fancy words. I want her to be kind of a Sherlock Holmes investigator but without the craziness. I want people to like her and think she is just a bit “disconnected”. She is a realistic person but during her arch, she will have to learn to work with other people, explain difficult concepts easily, and understand that magic is a very real thing. Also, she thinks that sex and love is a distraction and a waste of time, but she will learn that she finds women very, very interesting.
How do I do her smart, likeable and realistic?
June 11, 2015 — 5:23 AM
Fred G. Yost says:
So, two things jump to mind, reading this. I think part of what made Sherlock a likable/semi believable character is that we see him through the lens of an everyman. We relate to Watson’s awe at Sherlock’s intellect, we trust Watson’s assertions that Sherlock is a good man. This can be more difficult to achieve if your hyper-inteligent character is also your POV character.
The second is more just curiosity on my part. Why is she asked to go to the capital? Has she published a paper related to the magic or is she tagging along with a tenured professor that has experience consulting on crimes? It doesn’t seem terribly logical for a police force to rely on a young/unproven grad student/professor/ researcher without establishing her bona fides.
A few more questions I just thought of:
• if she’s arrogant and not very empathetic, why do people like her? Do they start off not liking her and she grows on them, or do they always like her?
• Has she never encountered anyone at the university that wasn’t college educated (food service, maintenance, etc)? The kind of people that may not be intellectuals but know their job well and are necessary for a functional society?
Hope this helps!
June 11, 2015 — 11:33 AM