I wrote a post yesterday declaring myself a no-foolin’ sure-shootin’ make-mistakes-but-gonna-keep-on-trying-anyway feminist. It received a kind response, so thanks for that.
One of the responses to that comes mostly from men and that response is, roughly:
“I don’t believe in equality for just women, so I cannot call myself ‘feminist.'”
And sometimes this is followed up with them preferring the term humanist or equalist.
Or calling the idea ‘egalitarianism,’ instead.
Women and men and everybody: all equal. Good. Sure. Yes.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting us all to be equal. I get it. I agree with that. And I think this idea comes from a good place, for the most part — a noble place, one without rancor or venom.
But, just the same, I see a problem.
A few problems, actually.
Instead of looking at this like a scale that needs balancing, let’s pretend that it’s about money (and at least a part of this really is about money). I say this because balancing a scale can involve taking away from the heavier side to balance scales, and I think some men look at feminism as exactly that: “You’re going to take from me to give to them.”
So, instead, let’s assume it’s about money.
Let’s say that a man has a dollar. One hundred pennies.
Let’s say a woman has — this number floats a bit, but let’s just settle on 80 cents.
Again, we could say that to make things equal that we must take money out of the man’s pocket, but that’s silly. We want a gain, here. Instead, the goal is to ensure that conditions are met where more money enters the woman’s pocket.
(And again, here ‘money’ is a placeholder for all the vagaries of equality.)
It would be easy to say, as a man with a full dollar in your pocket, that everyone should have the same amount of money. But that’s ambiguous. Generic. It has no goal, no task, no specific channel of action. We need to be specific — we need to be able to point to that woman sitting right there and say, “Godfuckingdamnit, how do we put more money in her pocket?” It’s like being in a room with a locked door. Someone needs to pick the lock to escape, so it’s worthless to say, “Well, I think all doors should be open.” Yeah, that’s super-fucking great as a theory, but seriously, we need to deal with the door standing in our way first.
Now, add to the fact that, really, men are already more equal than equal.
The door is open to us. We have the key. Again, it’s really nice to say, I think all people should have this key, except there you are, still holding onto it. You’re not handing it off. You’re not sharing it.
Another metaphor: bullying in school.
It’s bullshit when one kid bullies another, and then the victim either fights back or “tattles” (one of the most corrupted terms we can lend to our children, how dare you speak out against a wrong-doer, you little shit), that victim shares in the punishment. It’s crap. One side had the power, and used it, and now everybody pays, which means ultimately the victim pays twice.
This, is like that, at least a little bit.
Men already have the power and the privilege.
We already have All The Things. Or, at least, Most Of The Things.
So, it sounds galling to be the ones who have the lion’s share and say, “I think all people should share in the spoils, not just women.” In other words, you’ve included yourself in that generic, unfocused “everybody” group. And this is where equalism / humanism / egalitarianism feels wifty, wonky, lazy, weak — it’s a pie’s eye view, a gesture with a limp noodle fingers, “Sure, sure, yes, we should all be equal, and we should all have ponies, and let them eat cake. The ponies and the people. Let the ponies and the people eat cake, in case I wasn’t clear.”
Feminism is there to address a very specific set of deficits. But it’s not exclusive. You can be feminist while being for the correction of other imbalances, too. You can be an EQUALITY FOR ALL person while still being someone who supports the particular cause of correcting these deficits.
If you want to right these specific wrongs — then you’re a feminist.
If you don’t want to correct them — then you’re not.
And if you’re not a feminist…
…then you’re really not much of an equalist, or a humanist, or an egalitarian. Meaning, it’s hard to say you’re for all SHAPES if you won’t be there for SQUARES in particular, you see what I mean? Being a feminist is part of it. As I see it, being a feminist isn’t taking anything away from anybody. It’s there to give, not remove — it’s all additive, not subtractive. And that, gents, is why I’m #HeForShe, and not just #WeForWe. I don’t need to confirm a world where you share with me, because the flow of power has already gone the other way. We need to learn to share.
Us.
Men.
Okay?
Okay.
Annika says:
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU’RE CALLING A SQUARE, BUSTER?
September 25, 2014 — 9:30 PM
terribleminds says:
Squares are super-rad. WHY ARE YOU ANTI-SQUAREIST
September 25, 2014 — 9:33 PM
J.C. Hutchins says:
SOCIAL JUSTICE SQUARE
September 25, 2014 — 9:43 PM
terribleminds says:
TROLL CIRCLE SMASH
September 25, 2014 — 10:04 PM
Michael Robinson says:
Smash the polygontriarchy.
September 26, 2014 — 11:23 AM
A Citizen of the World says:
This, this, THIS!
Thank you, Chuck!
September 25, 2014 — 9:31 PM
Devin says:
This is perfectly timed, as I had someone asking me on my blog if it should be called equalism instead of feminism.
September 25, 2014 — 9:31 PM
Dianna Gunn says:
Well said! I must say, I’ve always respected you as a writer, but in the last little bit I’ve really come to respect you as a person. Keep challenging bullshit everywhere, sir! I would tip my hat to you but I’m not wearing one.
September 25, 2014 — 9:36 PM
terribleminds says:
WHY ARE YOU ANTI-HAT
YOU HATTIST
September 25, 2014 — 9:39 PM
Dianna Gunn says:
And that was the best laugh I’ve had all day. Thank you, good sir. Now I have to find my hat so I can stop being an anti-hattist… It’s a terrible prejudice!
September 25, 2014 — 9:41 PM
terribleminds says:
I am an equihattarian.
September 25, 2014 — 9:42 PM
Beth says:
Hatters gotta hat.
September 25, 2014 — 10:16 PM
terribleminds says:
Literal LOL.
September 25, 2014 — 10:41 PM
Puck says:
Second literal LOL right here.
September 27, 2014 — 5:26 PM
Monica says:
“Feminism is there to address a very specific set of deficits.” 🙂 Why are you putting things so simply and clearly so like, people can’t refute it …
September 25, 2014 — 9:43 PM
Rebecca Douglass says:
Chuck, you have brains. And a good heart. Thank you.
September 25, 2014 — 9:48 PM
tericonnolly says:
Thanks you feminist glad to know you a little bit better !
September 25, 2014 — 9:56 PM
Zepharius Be says:
The reason I refuse to call myself a ‘feminist’ is not because I don’t believe that women don’t have it worse than men, because obviously, anyone with open eyes can see that.
The reason I don’t call myself a feminist is that every run in I’ve had with people who have aggressively called themselves ‘feminist’ have been people who mocked me for being a transgender male (saying that I shouldn’t want to be anything but female), mocked transgender women (saying they are wannabes that can never be real women), have labelled all men as inferior or animals, or have mocked the sexual harassment of men. Not to mention literally every feminist I have encounter have literally forced the label on me. They said I didn’t have a choice, because if I’m not a feminist then I don’t support women.
This has caused the word to become a trigger word for me. As in every time I here it, I’m reminded of those things. Any feminist I’ve ever met that I’ve had a good conversation with about humans rights did not even MENTION that they were feminist. They didn’t have to. But ever women that has mentioned that they were a feminist before getting into a conversation with me about humans rights ended up doing one of the awful things I mentioned above.
I think the problem that comes with these labels is that people find some sort of pride in the label that they really don’t deserve. Like being a feminist is somehow being part of a super elite club that makes your smarter or somehow a better fighter for human rights.
Furthermore, the word feminist hasn’t just become a negative for me. These ‘elitists’ have put such a bad feeling behind the word ‘feminism’ that every time I post something that’s vaguely feminist, people seem shocked that I would ever be part of a group that has been known to have such loud, awful elitists. Men get nervous because they think that I could possibly be one of those feminist who blame men for everything. Because of that, I had to find a term that was not associated with the negative feeling that comes with the word ‘feminist’. I came up with ‘equalist’ on my own and was surprised to see that many people had felt the need to do the same, and often for the same reason.
So if anyone is a good person fighting for human rights, feel free to use any or no term, if you feel like it. If you prefer being called a feminist, good on you. However, I will always refuse to do so because I believe the group is starting to fade away and is getting taken over by the elitist. Just like how PETA started the fight for animal rights, and is now run by elitists. Just like how, very sadly, Christianity is beginning to be represented in society by people like the WBBC.
Just a little thing to think about, before you go and start disrespecting people who have made a choice to not join a certain label (because frankly, in the fight for human rights, these silly labels shouldn’t matter anyways).
September 25, 2014 — 9:52 PM
Matthew Borgard (@MatthewBorgard) says:
I consider myself a staunch feminist, but I totally acknowledge that a lot of people have a problem with that label because of how feminism has historically treated trans issues, issues of race, etc. While I’m always skeptical of people saying “well, I’m not a *feminist*” I absolutely understand why a lot of people concerned with the issues I just mentioned say it.
That said, a lot of what you wrote is pretty silly. “Not to mention literally every feminist I have encounter have literally forced the label on me.” Well, hi there 🙂 I guess you can’t claim that anymore?
I won’t claim that every single person should be a feminist. I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t claim that every single self-identifying feminist is a transphobic, radical elitist.
September 25, 2014 — 10:17 PM
Carrie* (with a #$%! asterisk!) says:
You did just say that what Zepharius wrote was “silly”. Kinda rude.
September 25, 2014 — 10:39 PM
Andi_G says:
Well, he did use literally twice in the same sentence. Branch out a little, Zeph.
September 26, 2014 — 6:45 AM
vraydar says:
TERFS suck & I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with their ignorant bullshit. That’s why I think intersectional feminism is so important. There are few people more oppressed than the trans community (esp trans PoC). That is something that feminism needs to focus on.
March 27, 2015 — 9:37 PM
Jenni Cornell says:
Redefine the word in your mind, now that you hopefully feel you have met a cool feminist. I get it. The word is loaded. But make it your own, not someone else’s. I’d hate to judge all transgender people by a few. I’m sure you are more than that word alone.
September 25, 2014 — 10:20 PM
Katie Doyle says:
Yes, this. You said exactly what I was thinking.
September 25, 2014 — 10:49 PM
Jenn Lyons says:
Yes, thank you. I refuse to stop using that word just because some segment of population has decided ‘feminist’ is a dirty word. Nope! I say it’s not a dirty word, my opinion matters, and in EXACTLY the same way I’m not going to let people dictate my place in the world and confine me to the home and kitchen, I’m also not going to let them define my identity.
I’m a feminist. That’s a good thing.
September 26, 2014 — 9:48 AM
Peg says:
There is a major issue with intersectionality and some feminists, but other feminists are working on educating them. I’m sorry you were mocked for being who you are.
September 25, 2014 — 10:31 PM
Carrie* (with the #$%! asterisk!) says:
Aw, I’m sooo sorry you’ve had to deal with those types of people!!
However, from what you described, I would say that they weren’t so much “feminists” as just straight-up BITCHES!! Unfortunately, they’re everywhere. You need to learn to ignore the idiots of the world and concentrate on the kind and loving people you meet!
I would call myself a feminist… Do you think I’m behaving myself in a respectful manner?
That’s my point. It’s not the word. It’s the PERSON!
*jumping off soapbox*
I hope you have better experiences!! Hugglez!
September 25, 2014 — 10:34 PM
Katie Doyle says:
Very well put.
September 25, 2014 — 10:51 PM
Fatma Alici says:
I understand, to a degree, where you are coming from. Labels people use define how you think of a set of people. Eventually, it is hard to separate what the label means, and the people who have represented it.
In my case, most of my life christians made me miserable. They mentally, and physically bullied me. They told about all the things that would happen when I burned in hell. I was ten, and this was an adult.
But, even though I have a knee jerk reaction to the label, doesn’t mean that in of itself is a bad thing. Their are shitty people and amazing people who are using the same label. It is hard, freaking hard, but try to remember that. Cause, it might cause you to miss out people who will understand you, get you, and help you.
September 25, 2014 — 11:04 PM
Jessica Burde says:
Sounds like you’ve had a lot of nasty run-ins with TERFS (trans-exclusionary radical feminists). Unfortunately there are some large factions within feminism that don’t get talked about in mainstream, and some of those factions are less about equal rights than they are about being professional victims and attacking everyone who isn’t them.
Personally, I id as an intersectional feminist, a group which sadly doesn’t get the media play the rad fems do–though we are working on making our voices heard.
October 12, 2014 — 10:48 AM
Paul Baxter says:
If. I hear what you’re saying, you’re saying it’s not an either/or. It’s an also. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I agree.
September 25, 2014 — 9:55 PM
Heather Milne Johnson says:
Thanks, Chuck. I’m so tired of the zero sum bullshit that keeps getting thrown around.
September 25, 2014 — 9:56 PM
Clare/ MuggleCreator says:
Thank you! 😀
Very good way of explaining things.
September 25, 2014 — 9:56 PM
Andrea Ragadio says:
Well said, Chuck!
The “I’m an equalist/humanist/egalitarian” thing reminds me too much of the “wE’rE AlL OnE rAcE” thing.
Rough translation: I need a cute slogan that absolves me of any real responsibility and still gives me warm&fuzzies inside.
September 25, 2014 — 9:56 PM
Kay Camden says:
My thoughts exactly. When people say, “I’m not a feminist, I’m an equalist,” what I hear is “I don’t want to identify with a group that might actually have to DO something.”
‘Cause, you know, life is awesome for them. Why demand change? That’s a lot of work.
Without feminists, we have no change.
And without targeting specific social issues, one at a time, we won’t get anywhere. The fight for “Yeah! Equalism!” is as vague as a fight for “No More Disease!” It’s directionless. It’s a cop-out.
September 26, 2014 — 10:56 AM
Lawerence Hawkins says:
SHAPES! YES!
September 25, 2014 — 10:03 PM
Sarah_Madison says:
Once again, you nailed it. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
September 25, 2014 — 10:23 PM
Brandon Carbaugh says:
Another way of putting it: feminism exists inside the broader umbrella that is egalitarianism. So when people attempt to shift the conversation from the former to the latter, it necessarily feels limiting, because you’re asking the speaker to sacrifice specificity.
It’s like if I said, “I want to talk about Boardwalk Empire,” and someone said, “No no no, we have to talk about ALL tv shows.” Like, yes, that’s a thing we could do — but I don’t want to do that right now. I want to talk about Boardwalk Empire, specifically, and the tools used to talk about “all TV shows” are not adequate for that purpose — and the things I have to say about Boardwalk Empire do not apply to “all TV shows”.
As with any disagreement on the internet, in the end, it all comes down to semantics — a simple confusion of terms.
September 25, 2014 — 10:35 PM
Luci says:
That’s a great way of putting it! Next time someone harps on about feminism being too specific, I’m gonna use your analogy. Because the things I talk about when discussing Adventure Time are not the things I discuss when chatting about Battlestar Galactica. Yuss.
September 28, 2014 — 5:55 PM
Gry Ranfelt says:
This analogy is perfect.
September 29, 2014 — 1:08 AM
kafkafuura says:
I think that the people that just try to glaze it over with “Equal for All” are just sort of missing the point. Men and women are different, just as man A is different from man B, and woman A is different from woman B. You’re never going to get a 50/50 spread of men and women in every field, just like you’re not going to have an equal height distribution for a professional basketball team.
But that’s not what it’s about. Our species grew up with a mostly male-dominated societal structure – whenever I hear the word “misandry” I just imagine them being reincarnated as insects so their cries could ring true – and I think it’d be nice to grow out of that phase. Do everything we can to break down anything in our society that says a person’s womanhood either automatically places them on path A, or tells them they can’t walk path B, or that they are any less on any path simply because they are a woman. Our society has a lot of things wrong, or rather misunderstood. Sometimes I feel like people are around chanting edicts such as, “It is a sin for tall people to play basketball,” rather than letting the women who are probably better than men on average for some types of jobs get those jobs.
Alright, so if the job is moving 40 lb bricks and a man is moving more bricks a day than a woman is, of course the man should be paid more. It’s just that the situation is hardly ever like that. It’s never as simple as that. (I’d wager if the woman was a woman that signed up for a job moving bricks, she’d probably be moving just as many if not more, so maybe you’re putting her in an uncomfortable position – bad for your productivity, bad for her sanity – stop it.)
Now there are a lot of feminists that get on people (mostly men)’s nerves. In their eyes, these feminists are like Christian crusaders waving about their gilded swords and proclaiming, “Everything you were doing before is a sin and must repent and we’ll still never forgive you for it.” Which is gave rise to that “social justice warriors” term, a term which should really be reserved for groups like PETA (the group that was trying to link autism with milk) if you go by its original definition, but which some people have unfortunately started using as a synonym for feminist.
Now like I said before, our society has a bunch of things wrong. Even the worst of the “PETA-like” feminists will usually have at least a point or two that really does deserve attention, (among such other things as declaring that the word “female” is hateful), which is an indication that we’ve still got a lot of work to do.
But really after all of this rambling, all I really want to say is: Yes – it is and should be all about working together to break down boundaries, to -improve- and fix the social “climate” that works against women, “Godfuckingdamnit, how do we put more money in her pocket?” – an ultimate plus for everyone, not just rattling the cage and widening the gap between the people who both want to “fix” the other side.
Disclaimer, I am male and I live in Japan (which has a different, and perhaps much more entrenched flavor of sexism). I would hesitate to call myself a feminist, as I don’t believe I’ve done anything productive enough to be worthy of the title, but I support those who are.
September 25, 2014 — 11:03 PM
Satan says:
THIS. THIS, alla this. perfect.
September 25, 2014 — 11:15 PM
Amy Raby says:
I think there actually are some zero-sum aspects to feminism. For example, the “second shift,” where women do the majority of housework and child care even when both partners are working full time. There’s no way that can be rectified without men picking up more of the load. Unless we invent robots or something.
September 25, 2014 — 11:28 PM
wagnerel says:
Wait, what? Are you a robotist? 😀
What you said is true, though, and hiring outside help isn’t an option for couples who are struggling to get by on two incomes.
September 26, 2014 — 2:10 AM
Kelly B says:
“hiring outside help”… which generally tends to be minority, poor women*. So, not really changing the gender balance there, simply “off-shoring” it onto someone else.
*No, not always. Yes, they need jobs. Yes, the work needs to be done. Yes, it’s a complex issue. But “hiring outside help” isn’t the solution to women doing the majority of child care & housework when it’s simply another women you are hiring – who then has to go home and do her own work.
September 26, 2014 — 7:31 AM
Amy Raby says:
Yes, I am a robotist! Robots for everyone!
September 27, 2014 — 1:34 PM
Stephanie Bittner says:
I’m proud to be square, Chuck!
September 26, 2014 — 12:06 AM
52lettersinthealphabet says:
Spent a large portion of today trying to say this myself. Thanks for coming along and phrasing it so eloquently.
September 26, 2014 — 12:39 AM
St.Louis says:
So, very well put.
September 26, 2014 — 1:03 AM
Bird says:
I find the vast majority of feminism misses the point. Equality is a far more important and higher reflection than most give the effort too. We are not all equally speedy witty attractive etc etc. But we all have equal intrinsic value, one as another. The only possible approach to being correct in this matter is to greet each individual for what they are; an astounding construction, a miracle, a limitless opportunity; a human being to be cherished. This is of course, until the coax you to do otherwise…
September 26, 2014 — 3:43 AM
Rich says:
Fighting inequality with inequality makes as much sense as bombing your way to world peace, which is why I don’t consider feminism the same as egalitarianism.
September 26, 2014 — 4:00 AM
Cari Hislop says:
As a woman, I disagree. I have long preferred “Equalitist” over “Feminist” for the same core reasons stated by Zepharius B. Over the decades I have known all sorts of people (and liked many of them regardless of their economic background, political views, sexual orientation, religious views, education levels etc). I’ve come to a personal conclusion based on my experiences that people who label themselves ‘Feminists” tend to fit somewhere along a spectrum. Most people who say they’re feminists are nice people – they have good intentions and want basic equality. I don’t have a problem with that (obviously). However as the Feminist becomes more active – as they head towards the other end of the spectrum (which at it’s worst is militant) I find those women (or men) hate men. I love men so yes, I have a problem with that.
Sadly, it is the most militant whose definition will have the most influence. After reading your post the first thing that came to mind was that scene in Frank Herbert’s book Dune where Paul’s Fremen name, Muad Dib is being used as a weapon to kill. As you know, words have power. We might prefer them to mean one thing, but they often mean something entirely different. As a female artist I’ve studied women artists from throughout recorded history. I spent fifteen years pre-internet researching women rulers (for my personal enlightenment). I have a very good understanding of what women in the past have gone through as well as what women today are going through. Men and women are different in many ways; though one is not superior than the other. We complement each other. We are yin and yang. The oppression of one only hurts the other…and rebounds to oppress the oppressor. My definition of Equality is the balance of differences between the two sexes – the ideal harmony (which being an ideal has probably never been met nor may ever be met, but is still worth striving for).
September 26, 2014 — 4:04 AM
Sara Crow says:
This is a gross generalization fed mostly by culture and not by actual facts. There is a distinct pocket of people that wants to shame feminists by painting them in a particular way that has never really been the case. Actually READ feminist philosophy and you won’t see what you mention here. It’s a fallacy.
September 26, 2014 — 9:16 AM
Gry Ranfelt says:
An experience cannot be a fallacy.
MANY people experience these militant feminists. Regardless of what the theory states, practism is a whole other (more important) aspect. You could say “look at the philosophy behind communisme. It works!”
Well, yeah, in theory. And then look at DDR, Mao’s China and the Soviet Union.
September 29, 2014 — 1:11 AM
Mikey Campling (@mikeycampling) says:
I do agree with the broad direction of travel here, but I know that some female feminists object to men hijacking the term. By your own argument Chuck, it’s ironic when the men holding the power declare themselves to be feminists. It’s actually much more consistent to say that you believe in equality, i.e. you are against sexism in all its forms, as well as racism, slavery, religious hate and so on.
Personally, it drives me crazy that we’re still having this debate in the 21st Century, but here we are so let’s keep at it.
Let’s look forward to the day when the word feminist isn’t needed any more and bring our kids up to expect equality for all.
September 26, 2014 — 4:49 AM
terribleminds says:
Explain how male feminists are ironic by my or anybody else’s logic. I mean, literally, if you could, please unpack that idea, because I’m not seeing it.
September 26, 2014 — 7:29 AM
remacaracappa says:
A little while ago, I came to the conclusion that I don’t think that men calling themselves “feminists” is really a correct use of the word. It doesn’t offend me if they do so, and I don’t, as the above poster has said, find it ironic. I guess you could say I’m sorta soft-set on the opinion in that I’ll discuss it if it comes up, or if I find a specific instance to be particularly egregious, I’ll say so, but otherwise, I have more important thing to do than seek out the menfolk that are labeling themselves as such and beating them profusely about the head and face for it. That said, here is my reasoning, and it should be noted that this is copied and pasted form a thread elsewhere on the topic of whether men should/not make “feminist” part of their identity where I had earlier said that I thought it was good for men to identify themselves as feminist, but that a man being a feminist looks different from a woman being a feminist (i had a change in thought in the course of a couple of hours). It begins with talking about my initial reluctance to call myself “feminist” (it may not be entirely clear in this context, but I am a cisgendered woman):
So here’s my thinking. I haven’t fully changed my mind on men calling themselves feminist, but I also am definitely less open to it than I was. Please don’t ask me to explain the thoughts that brought about the “a-ha” moment, I was half asleep. Suffice it to say it happened.
But here’s where I started from:
I grew up in an environment where “feminism” was a word ranging from not really preferable to downright dirty, and only a positive connotation for a very few. For those for whom it was, eh, less bad, it began and ended with “I want equal pay for equal work”. I have a stepfather who thought it was hilarious to tell stories about how he used to make his GI Joe’s mime raping his sister’s Barbies and would rant about how feminism was nothing more than women demanding special treatment in every corner of their lives when the subject came up.
I managed to work out for myself that there had to be more to feminism than that, and didn’t understand how the idea that women should be treated equally in all ways could be a bad thing.
Some of the first women that I knew who openly identified as feminists were, what didn’t know then and now suspect to be, TERFS (trans-exclusionary radical feminists), who I mostly remember as spending significant amounts of time talking about killing or enslaving men or “anyone who disguises himself to try to get on women’s good side and betray them” as I remember it being put to me once …I didn’t know about transexuals, transgenders, genderqueer etc at the time. At least one self-identified as “feminazi”.
In the light of all that, I didn’t want to identify as “feminist” and while I knew there were a lot of problems, I didn’t realize how far-reaching it was, at least not in western countries. And it just happened that the next round of people that I had any sort of positive conversation with on the topic were a couple of men who identified as feminists. And were pretty much doing the right things-
They never tried to tell me what to think or expected gold stars and head pats (or if they did, his it really well) they didn’t try to speak for any women, but told me what they learned from women and introduced me to other women and stepped back.
I’ve only personally known a handful of men who have actively referred to themselves as feminists, and each of them has been pretty much like this- the sort to get out of the way and not expect anyone to make accommodations for them, but to do what they could to amplify women’s voices and efforts, to not speak over women, to care about women having an equal place in the world, and not just for their daughter/wife/girlfriend/sister/mother, ones that I would trust to speak up when no women were present to look good for.
I guess this is what I meant when I say that a man being feminist looks different than a woman being feminist, but…it really is more like saying we’re all standing on solid ground when some of us are standing on the ground and others are standing in holes of varying depths. What they’re doing there is just the right thing, there shouldn’t need to be a label for that.
I dunno. I’m not offended by a man calling himself a feminist if he’s doing the right things…but I think I also don’t think it’s really correct use of the word.
October 11, 2014 — 6:01 PM
orderneedschaos says:
I don’t normally like getting into these types of discussions, mainly because they tend to divide people and we tend to let emotion drive our premise more than we let facts and reason. Debates like this are polarizing and unnecessary in a democratic society that is supposed to stand for freedom and equality. One thing I’ve noticed from the original blog and the comments is that no one touched on the fact that as American’s (Yes I know not everyone who reads this is an American) we have the freedom to pursue our dreams and to work for what we want no matter how hard. Yes the system isn’t perfect and yes we still have some issues with equality, but there is nothing stopping you from saying NO to the status quo and doing what you think will give you the extra 20 cents that the man has. If it wasn’t for our system and the freedom it engenders, we would never have had women like Rosa Parks, Emilia Earhart, Lucretia Mott,Ellen Swallow Richards, etc.(I could go on for ages).
The point is that as a man or a woman in this country, no matter the color or the race, you have the freedom to reach for the stars. I understand why there was a need for women’s rights movements in the 1800’s and 1900’s, there were some stereotypes and societal beliefs that kept women from doing things that men did. However, it’s been proven time and time again throughout our Nations’ history that it doesn’t matter who you are or what your background is, if you strive for the hundred pennies and you work for the hundred pennies eventually you will get it. You don’t need anyone to GIVE YOU anything. This idea that people will give you stuff because you deserve it is annoying and degrading and no American should believe you need someone to give you a leg up to succeed.
Sorry if my words pushed anyone the wrong way, but this culture of political correctness and societal laziness has me twisted up.
Cheers
September 26, 2014 — 7:25 AM
terribleminds says:
1.) We’re not talking about just America.
2.) Saying that “reaching for 100% means you’ll eventually get there” is really very shittily dismissive to those women who have given that but found themselves shut out of politics, or major executive positions, or any other workplace. (Women hold less than 5% of Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000 CEO positions. By your logic, they’re just not trying hard enough.)
3.) Income disparity has narrowed, but is far from eradicated — women still make less money, and in some positions (like medicine), they make considerably less for doing equal work.
4.) Rape culture. <-- that right there is real, and it's indicative 5.) "This idea that people will give you stuff because you deserve it is annoying and degrading and no American should believe you need someone to give you a leg up to succeed." C'mon. Seriously? We're not saying, OOH POOR LADIES NEED A LEG UP. We're saying, HEY, LET'S STOP CUTTING THEIR LEGS OUT FROM UNDER THEM. It's not gracious charity to suggest they should be given the same opportunity -- which, despite your factless assertions, they do not have the same opportunities as men. -- c.
September 26, 2014 — 7:36 AM
laurenbjorkman says:
What I would’ve said, only you said it better.
September 26, 2014 — 11:09 AM
Carrie* (Asterisks for President!!) says:
*clapping loudly*
LOVED THIS! Very succinctly worded! BRAVO!!
September 27, 2014 — 12:18 AM
anastasiasoluna says:
Wait, you say that we should do what we think will give us that extra 20 cents (which is a stand-in for a more equal society) and then say that a feminist movement shouldn’t exist. But if a feminist movement is what we think will give us that extra 20 metaphorical-cents, then you should be all for it by your own logic.
September 26, 2014 — 10:51 AM
Michael Robinson says:
I think OP’s reasoning comes from the culture of rugged individualism we have hammered into us from an early age. You can seek to better your standing, but not by working together with others. That’s communism. Unless you’re a corporation.
September 26, 2014 — 11:47 AM
Alicia F says:
Those damn politically correct, societally lazy women who end up in low income jobs because they have to drop out of school because they are pregnant as a result of poor sex education and access to birth control. WHY don’t they just reach for the stars? Don’t they know they are EQUAL?
October 4, 2014 — 9:48 AM
vraydar says:
If you think, even in America, that people have equal opportunities, then I have a magic carpet that flies to sell you. Gender, race, sexual orientation, (and many other things) all play a part. How do you explain 43 presidents in a row being white cis men. How do you explain how white men run almost all of government & Fortune 500/1000 companies. If you’re white and male, white supremacy & gender bias are what is working in your favor. It’s not b/c you guys “are just better”.
March 27, 2015 — 9:50 PM
Teresa Duryea Wong says:
Best thing I’ve read on this issue since Sheryl Sandberg. I survived 22 years in the oil and gas industry, the last several as an executive, but never got to be a part of the boys club. But I did enjoy my 80 cents. (That sounds pretty cliche, maybe I need to put that on a t-shirt.) Now I squat in front of a computer all day and write… way better.
September 26, 2014 — 7:25 AM
Stephanie says:
Can I be a little hedonistic here? It’s ultimately for the greater altruist cause, of course.
Mathematically:
I like circles because they only truly exist in theory. (Yes, until ‘Pi’ is defined it’s a conundrum).So circles, in a way – they’re magical, like unicorns or under-nourished rhinoceri.
I also like squares and square-values because they simplify complex ideas. I can add complex vectorial values together in a single line rather several by the triangle method. We call it “Cartesian” values.
But I also like triangles because they’re also useful for simplifying the final answer. We call it “Polar” values.
Ultimately, I can use all these different shapes to look at things from a different angle. Pun intended. So most people choose the shape to simplify a dilemma. The same with ethics. So while I might want to explain to others how an electric motor works (Ironically, Einstein never did), or perhaps the principles of existentialism, I’ll choose a set of perspectives to do so.
Support Group:
“Hi everyone I’m Stephanie and I’m polygonist”
“Hi everyone I’m Steve and I’m a Polyagamist”
Wrong group, Steve, but thanks for confessing. That’s the right attitude. Take a seat.
September 26, 2014 — 7:49 AM
SL Eastler says:
Chuck, Thank you. It’s because you’re a beautiful person, that you’re a beautiful writer. But enough rainbows and unicorns. I wanted to share something that recently happened in my daughter’s classroom here in Ireland, where all schools have an “ethos” or religion by law.
Teacher: Now that I’ve told you the story of Adam & Eve, what do you think?
Student: Do you mean to say that if Eve hadn’t eaten that apple, we’d live forever?
Teacher: That’s correct.
Student: Goddammit! Maybe He should’ve made girls whole too. [Meaning not from a rib.]
Anyway, always a good chuckle from this family of lowly agnostics when original sin and blame of females are written into the most read book in the world. Fortunately, my daughter has decided to settle her score with the opposite sex on the judo mat, where sexism is her best friend and being underestimated her greatest attribute.
September 26, 2014 — 8:08 AM
Baby June says:
Common sense and logical analysis of our social condition? We can’t have that.
What an outlandish concept, helping women become equal in society!
September 26, 2014 — 8:15 AM
Sara Crow says:
THANK YOU, Chuck. This actually helped me understand the concept of “black feminism” and “Hispanic feminism” as well. They are addressing TWO inequities and how their race plays into their issues. The privilege inherent in some approaches hasn’t addressed the even greater disparity minority women face. I understood it conceptually, but hadn’t QUITE seen it that way before. This is a fantastic explanation.
September 26, 2014 — 9:13 AM
Michael Robinson says:
I’d be an intersectional feminist if I were going to claim the label. But there’s no telling which of the 30+ movements someone means when they use the word, so I prefer to go by their words and actions.
But if someone wants to call me feminist, I won’t take offense.
September 26, 2014 — 11:19 AM
DJE says:
Y’know…
A young, wealthy, privileged white woman makes a single speech and suddenly a whole bunch of people flip out and start dancing the feminism dance, singing, “I’ve seen the light!”
And then they go right into the brow-beating, social shaming, and bullying.
Well then, they haven’t seen any light. They’ve just slipped a different filter over the same spotlight of advantage they’ve always been carrying. Slapping a label on yourself doesn’t magically imbue you with the slightest bit of enlightenment. Conversely, just because someone doesn’t adopt that label doesn’t make them a troglodyte. I know, It’d be great if everything were that simple… but it’s not.
You have the balls to say I’m “not much of a humanist” because I won’t *conform* and adopt the labels you decree are righteous? Really? Seriously? I think you need to step back and reexamine your understanding of feminism, ‘cuz you’ve missed something.
Feminism is not just a word, it’s not just a set of ideals. Social, political, cultural context DOES matter. The dialogue that’s been going on around and about feminism for decades IS relevant. It’s NOT just a feel-good appellation to throw onto yourself, and its critics are not just men blinded by their privilege.
Here, I’ll put it this way:
– I have serious problems with the warped power dynamics of our society. Well, I should be a feminist then, right? No, because…
– Contemporary feminism is a microcosm reflecting the macrocosm. Those very same dynamics are evident everywhere you look in today’s movement. In fact…
– Those very same dynamics are at play right here in this blog post and in many of the responses it’s received.
So, you want to call yourself feminist? Great. But if you’re going to perpetuate the same social power games feminism is supposed to be challenging… maybe you’re not much of one?
Chuck, I love ya, and we’re usually in lock-step, but you really bummed me out today. I mean, you shamed people for being self-described as ONLY humanist.
Don’t you think that’s kinda messed up?
And let the ridicule by the “enlightened” now commence.
September 26, 2014 — 11:44 AM
Michael Robinson says:
You’re right. The way a lot of people practice their feminism by applying patriarchal attitudes is among the reasons I don’t claim the label.
September 26, 2014 — 12:04 PM
terribleminds says:
‘Chuck, I love ya, and we’re usually in lock-step, but you really bummed me out today. I mean, you shamed people for being self-described as ONLY humanist.
Don’t you think that’s kinda messed up?
And let the ridicule by the “enlightened” now commence.’
Really? I bummed you out because I’m a feminist? I’m not shaming anybody. I’m saying: yeah, great, be a humanist, be an “equalist,” but feminism — as a term — actually means something. It’s a banner under which women’s rights were created and fought for. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, and it’s meant both as a term and as a movement to address a particular set of very real deficits. “Equalism” (to quote the very wise Renee Pickup) is a bumper sticker. It’s very nice. It’s also very generic.
Those who aren’t feminists aren’t “troglodytes,” and those who call themselves feminists are not mystically imbued with wisdom or magically called to act. But, I think it’s a good word, I think Emma Watson said good things, and I support them. If that bums you out, you might wanna seriously reexamine your threshhold for what upsets you. I didn’t kick over your plant. I said, YAY WOMEN, and BOO TO FOLKS WHO CAN’T GET BEHIND YAY WOMEN.
— c.
September 26, 2014 — 12:34 PM
DJE says:
“Really? I bummed you out because I’m a feminist?”
No, Chuck, that’s not what bummed me out.
“But, I think it’s a good word, I think Emma Watson said good things, and I support them. If that bums you out, you might wanna seriously reexamine your threshold for what upsets you.”
No, that’s not what bummed me out.
“I didn’t kick over your plant.”
No, you didn’t. You’re right. You didn’t kick over my plant.
“I said, YAY WOMEN, and BOO TO FOLKS WHO CAN’T GET BEHIND YAY WOMEN.”
If that had been all you said, then I wouldn’t have had an issue.
So, was this response supposed to be a demonstration of your empathy?
What do you think is the more accurate description of this interchange:
– Two people communicating, eye to eye.
– One person talking AT another from a position of dominance.
Don’t you think being a feminist requires more than just calling yourself one? Don’t you think feminism is supposed to be more than a club for the cool kids? Can’t you see there’s a problem in advocating feminism while behaving like the epitome of a WHITE MALE?
Please, if you haven’t already, do a search on #solidarityisforwhitewomen over on Twitter and scroll through that for a while. It might provide some insight on what’s actually bumming me out.
September 26, 2014 — 1:21 PM
terribleminds says:
“Don’t you think being a feminist requires more than just calling yourself one? Don’t you think feminism is supposed to be more than a club for the cool kids? Can’t you see there’s a problem in advocating feminism while behaving like the epitome of a WHITE MALE?”
Hey, don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say or suggest any of those things. You disagree with what I’m saying: fine. But your accusations here are roaming waaaaay outside the fence.
“Please, if you haven’t already, do a search on #solidarityisforwhitewomen over on Twitter and scroll through that for a while. It might provide some insight on what’s actually bumming me out.”
I know what the hashtag is. I follow its creator, Mikki Kendall, because she’s a bad-ass. I know that feminism sometimes has a “white feminist” problem, but that’s not a reason to not call yourself a feminist — and, in fact, Mikki Kendall would seem to call herself one just the same. The racial issues inside feminism are reasons *to* call yourself a feminist so that you have a voice there and can work to actively fix the things that are fucked up. So, what? Feminism isn’t perfect, and so it bums you out that I support it?
September 26, 2014 — 2:05 PM
DJE says:
Sorry, I’m not putting words into your mouth. I’m trying to provide an idea of how your words are beginning to look to me.
And we don’t really disagree. Not really. That’s actually part of the problem here. I’m sure we could go down the list, issue by issue, point by point, and there’d barely be any light between us, if any at all. And yet there’s contention because of a label?
Why is that?
You say feminist is a good word. I say that’s too simple and invites bias. I say it’s a -necessary- word, but it’s as vulnerable to co-opting as any other. I say it’s a complicated word, with a great deal of history and cultural weight. I say it’s a word not to be trivialized by bullshit dogmatic groupthink or reductionist branding. I want to avoid all of that, so I’ll argue the positions but dispense with the label.
Why isn’t that enough? Why can’t I say, “I’m a humanist (which actually means some very specific things, by the way) and an advocate of women’s rights and gender equality,” without being branded as “wifty, wonky, lazy, weak”? What the hell is up with that? (And how is that NOT shaming, Chuck?)
And, wait, what? (contemporary western) feminism *sometimes* has a “white feminist” problem? Buah? …Yah, no, that… wow. It’s not “sometimes”, it’s ALL the time. And it’s not just a problem with race, it’s also gender identity and economic status. C’mon. I know you must be at least tangentially aware of that.
I’m going to continue to assert that my discomfort with the current feminist movement–particularly digital feminism–is valid, and is coming from a place of fairness, thoughtfulness, and empathy. I don’t need to move to where today’s feminism is. Today’s feminism needs to move closer to where I am.
Oh, and about having a voice? Conforming doesn’t give me a voice. Calling myself a feminist would placate a lot of people I’d rather not see placated. By not adopting that label, it seems I’m actually encouraging the examination of the movement that I think really needs to be happening. Especially now. But that’s me and my individual circumstance.
I’m not saying it’s wrong for anyone to call themselves a feminist. I’m saying it’s not necessarily wrong for someone not to. It doesn’t bum me out that you support feminism. I support it too, effectively. What bummed me out is you not seeming to allow any room for -legitimate- rejection of the -label-. Personally speaking, I’m really tired of “Us VS. Them” absolutist, binary categorization. I was sad that you looked to be going down that road with this.
Finally, agreed that Mikki Kendall is a badass and all kinds of awesome. And thank you for actually engaging in a dialogue. It means a lot.
September 26, 2014 — 3:30 PM
Amy Raby says:
One thing I’m hearing a lot in these comments is “I won’t call myself a feminist because some feminists are mean and have extreme views.” I am mystified as to where these mean, extreme feminists are hiding, because I’m a feminist and have spent years hanging out in feminist circles and I’ve never seen them. (With the exception of one woman who clearly had personal problems, because she was abusive to everybody; I had to ban her from social media). I read Jezebel every day. Where are these mean, extreme feminists? They don’t move in the same circles I do.
I’m also seeing a lot of confusion in the comments about what feminism is about, equating it to problems with socialization (e.g. “girls are socialized to be [insert sexist stereotype], and boys are socialized to [insert sexist stereotype]”).
But feminism deals with specific and concrete issues. For example (and this list is far from exhaustive):
* Unequal pay for equal work.
* Unequal distribution of labor on the home front, also known as “the second shift.”
* The motherhood penalty, which is the fact that the more children working women have, the less they are paid, whereas the opposite is true for men (the more children they have, the more they are paid). Probably closely related to the second shift, since women bear the brunt of child care and that reduces the amount of time and energy they can spend at work.
* Lack of paid maternity and paternity leave.
* Lack of paid sick days. Both men and women would benefit from having paid sick days, but women suffer disproportionately from lack of paid sick days because they are usually the ones who end up staying home when a child is sick (daycare and schools will not accept a child with a fever). They also tend to get sick themselves when caring for a sick child.
* Sexual harassment at work.
* Sexual assault.
* Domestic violence.
These are all problems that disproportionately affect women and which feminism is working to correct. So when I hear somebody say they’re not a feminist, what i hear is, “I don’t care about unequal pay and sexual assault and domestic violence and all these other problems that are serious issues for women because LALALALA excuses.”
September 26, 2014 — 12:23 PM
DJE says:
Wow.
Did you really just say, ‘I’ve never experienced it, therefore it doesn’t happen’? Did you honestly go there?
And did you really just admit that you prejudge rather than actually listening to what someone’s saying?
So, would you consider yourself a mainstream feminist, then?
September 26, 2014 — 12:40 PM
JLK says:
Slighty off-topic — and I don’t want you to think I’m going after you specifically; I just really don’t like Jezebel and since someone mentioned it, I thought I would harp on for a little while —
For the record, I am a feminist, and I strongly dislike Jezebel. Which is too bad, since there ARE some good writers there and some great articles, and it was a stepping-stone to get me to read more about contemporary feminism and thought and current events. But then I noticed the content started to degrade; article titles were constructed to be as rage-inducing and attention-grabbing as possible (whether or not the content was that bad) and it flooded my Facebook feed to where I would go on social media to relax and just get completely stressed out and upset and anxious. Content, especially reviews of movies and books, would do deliberate misreadings of a work or of a situation just to fuel the outrage machine. It’s someone’s opinion, sure; but a bad opinion sells better and the comments and articles got to be an echo chamber. But that’s what gets readers’ attention, of course: clickbait, clickbait, clickbait. Jezebel also has (or had; maybe it’s gotten better) a problem with ignoring or minimizing minority issues, even sometimes lifting content from other sites and WOC writers and then tweaking it slightly and publishing it without links or credit (until the commenters or authors called them out on it) and refusing to engage with criticisms that they were participating in white-washing modern feminism. Also, “Jezebel” is a slur often applied specifically to women of color. A publication claims that title ironically and then is unironically aware of how they minimize or exclude non-white women.
So I have something of a problem with upholding Jezebel and its feminist journalism as the pinnacle of mainstream feminist popular writing and thought, or with people validating their feminism by the litmus test of having read Jezebel. Consuming does not an activist or an ally make. Reading Jezebel doesn’t even make one all that great of a feminist. I unfollowed Jezebel and stopped reading it after the Lena Dunham incident. My facebook feed has been a much happier place, and I no longer conduct my online feminist conversations in an echo chamber. I’ll still read Jezebel if someone links to it, but for the most part I refuse on principle to support a publication that body-shames and then claims to be THE feminist e-mag that you HAVE to read to validate yourself as a feminist.
September 27, 2014 — 12:38 AM
Amy Raby says:
Oh, we’ve got no quarrel. I’m not saying every feminist should read or like Jezebel. It’s going to be a personal taste thing. The articles there tend to be snarky and are intended mainly to entertain. I really like it as a safe place for feminists to congregate and discuss the issues, where abuse and derailing aren’t tolerated, but not every feminist is going to like their style.
I mentioned Jezebel because I really am interested in solving the mystery of the mean, extreme feminists that are alleged to be a major force in the movement but that I rarely encounter. I was hoping somebody might say, “Oh, the problem isn’t Jezebel, it’s [this other site]” and I could go look and judge for myself. Or they might say, “Jezebel–but that’s exactly where those people are!” and that would tell me that the the other commenter and I have a fundamental disagreement over what is mean and extreme.
September 27, 2014 — 1:42 PM
Damian Trasler says:
I love this:
“I don’t believe in equality for just women, so I cannot call myself ‘feminist.’”
Because there’s the implication that JUST WOMEN as a group could be made equal. And therefore everyone else could be less equal. Like the “equality” we’re talking about is a damn see-saw, and pushing up one end forces the other end down. Getting them to balance is TOO HARD!
Yes, we need feminists, because women still haven’t got equality – pay, medical care, rights of all kinds. We need groups agitating for equal treatment for people who are not white, because they certainly don’t get equality of treatment across a huge range of issues. When the see-saw tips, THAT’s when the defenders of the current high-riders can come out to play, making sure it doesn’t tip too far the other way. But we’re not there yet.
September 26, 2014 — 12:42 PM
Adan Ramie says:
Chuck, you’re in my top 3 Favorite Bloggers Who Ever Blogged A Blog. All the awards! Thank you for being a voice fighting for equality when you already have all the bonuses of what “equality” stands for to those of us who aren’t privy. …LSS, thanks for being an amazing person.
September 26, 2014 — 2:40 PM
Amy Raby says:
In case it’s not clear, I greatly appreciate when men write in support of feminism. We need and value all our allies, and, in my view, anyone, regardless of sex/gender, can claim the label “feminist.” It’s not just for women, nor does it have to be earned. This is a big table, and anyone who believes in equal rights for women can take a seat and be welcome.
So, big thanks to Chuck for these two posts (and earlier ones), and to everyone else who writes in support of women. Thanks to everyone who signal boosts, who raises awareness, who makes an effort to treat the women in their lives with respect and fairness, who tells people who makes sexist comments, “That’s not cool.” All efforts in the support of a more equitable world are appreciated.
September 26, 2014 — 4:10 PM
Nathania Johnson (@nlj) says:
I don’t have a problem with the word Feminist. I do have a problem with people shaming the word Humanist. As a white woman, I can’t pretend that a black man has more privilege in this country than I do. Especially in the aftermaths of the deaths of Mike Brown, Eric Garner, and John Crawford, to name a few. I can’t pretend that black men aren’t imprisoned at astounding rates. I can’t pretend that it’s easy for a transgender man of any race. Or a homosexual man of any race. I can’t turn a blind eye to the devastating statistic that is the suicide rate among young men in their teens and twenties. I’m not going to pretend that a white man in a wheelchair has more privilege than I am. And I’m absolutely not going to pretend there aren’t Lady Macbeths on this planet wreaking havoc with the Patriarchy. I am a feminist, but I’m a lot of other things too. There needs to be a term for it. Personally, I prefer and use the word Inclusionist.
September 26, 2014 — 9:21 PM
Todd Moody says:
You’re a brave man, Chuck, for opening up this subject. I wholeheartedly agree with you and what I perceive as your intent. But, man, it sure is difficult to mindmeld with everyone.
Everybody brings their own personal baggage along to filter things they read and try to put words in your mouth, so that it matches their own version of reality. We can’t even agree on a word to encourage women and support them, to cheer them on and try to keep the bullies from taking advantage or the bosses from treating them unfairly, or any other variety of shitty things that keep women from having that “equal” place in current human culture.
I know what I mean when I say feminism. Maybe you can’t see inside my heart to know what I mean. I’m okay with that, as many have said, actions speak louder than words.
Beard the fuck on, brother.
September 26, 2014 — 10:51 PM
Erik Deckers says:
I reject the term “feminist” for myself for a variety of personal reasons. I believe in equality for all, but I don’t buy this “you can’t be for equal rights if you don’t let me saddle you with this label” argument at the end of your piece.
Similarly, I’m a follower of Jesus Christ, but I don’t call myself a Christian because of what I see evangelists and fundamentalists doing under the guise of being a “Christian.” I refuse the label and would reject any statement of “you can’t treat people with love and respect if you don’t let me call you a Christian.”
So I’ll just continue to treat women with respect and dignity, and help them to get that other 20 cents. But I’ll do it under my own labels of my own making.
September 26, 2014 — 11:16 PM
JLK says:
I refuse to call myself an equalist because of several people who had to start calling themselves humanists because of harassment. The anti-feminists and PC crusaders got so bad that they now just avoid trouble by not calling themselves feminists. This happened to men and to women whom I know. The women were harassed by males who felt threatened by the feminist label and used gross misunderstandings of it to make the women uncomfortable. The men were harassed by other men who felt they were just stupid to willingly “give up” privilege or align themselves with an inferior gender. Like being a feminist was an insult to their masculinity. And in one case I recall a man being told by a girlfriend that he couldn’t call himself a feminist and be a real man; he would be “weaker” and therefore less desirable. Other men are told that they’re hypocrites for calling themselves feminists.
To be clear: I don’t blame those people for changing their label. Being “out” as a feminist in certain circles can be scary and even dangerous. It can lose you friends. Whether this is because of people’s misconceptions about feminism or people feeling threatened by the social agenda/change feminism wants is immaterial. I don’t like that “feminine” is still considered such an insult that we have to avoid harassment in advance by calling ourselves something else. And I know that not everyone calls themselves “humanist” because they’ve been harassed. It’s just my personal reason for not choosing to do so.
Maybe equality or “humanism” is something we can strive for in the future. “Equalist” is definitely a more encompassing term that describes being interested in rights for all people and not just along gender lines. Since it can apply to literally anything, though, I don’t like using it for conversations about SPECIFIC issues. I’d like to give myself the label appropriate to the situation, if that makes sense.
Feminism has its flaws, but I’d rather fix feminism than just abandon it. #fixingfeminism should totally become a thing, btw.
September 27, 2014 — 12:15 AM
Lee Mountford says:
Hmmm – we are all supporting equal rights here but are fighting over what labels are acceptable.
Is that really helpful?
If someone supports woman’s rights and calls themselves a feminist – all power to them.
If someone supports mens rights and calls themselves a mens rights activist – all power to them.
If someone supports rights to people of different colours, religions, beliefs, classes, wealth, mental dispositions and has a set term that covers their beliefs – all power to them.
I’m not being snarky here, I mean that in all sincerity, with every fibre of my being.
But none of us – NONE OF US – has the right to belittle one label or another.
Chuck, I respect the hell out of you, but you have eluded that you think the terms ‘Equalist’ or ‘Humanist’ etc. are generic and lazy. That’s your opinion, but I know people who are proud as hell of that label, and work tirelessly for equal rights on whatever front they can. So I think you are band wrong in that regard (but still love ya!)
This whole discussion is great, because we can talk like adults about serious issues, but trying to push labels on each other, saying ‘this is how it should be’ is not right. Not in my eyes, anyway.
If we all (people in this discussion) support equal rights for all, then we have a good base to start from. Now, say someone else has a different term for their belief. Is that a bad thing? Why not speak, work together and see how you can raise awareness for both causes.
This quest for equality always seems fraught with labels and what is the right thing to call yourself.
Call yourself what you want, but if you are fighting for those that are discriminated against you are part of the solution. If everyone was like that we’d reach our goal. The thing is, everyone isn’t like that. So instead of reaching and education those people, we are arguing about what is the correct term, and if you don’t agree you are wrong.
I don’t have a label for myself. I don’t call myself a feminist, a humanitarian, an equalitist, anything. But I support anyone fighting for equality and really try to do my bit where I can. I just don’t feel the need for a label BUT I do not put down, or scoff, at those that do.
Come on people, it kind of feels like missing the point here!
September 27, 2014 — 9:09 AM
Russ Linton says:
Yes, it is true that women make less on the dollar than men, no doubt about it. However, several rigorous studies have shown the gap is less than reported when corrected for stereotyping gender roles that affect BOTH sexes. Women are often expected to sacrifice their job for their family whereas men are expected to do the exact opposite. Men take off less for family matters, work more overtime to be the “bread winner”. Both of these can dramatically affect income, but lets not talk about the male side of this imbalance cause “they already have the lion’s share.” As if money makes up for a dysfunctional family / society.
In my household my wife currently earns like 1000% more than I do – she’s always earned more. I’ve had no qualms over the years against sacrificing my career for my family. I’ve been the one to stay at home with my son and step away from a career to relieve stress on our family and allow my wife to pursue hers. I did these things not because I’m a “feminist” but because I think societal labels and stereotypes should never override rational decision making or the needs of your family.
Is this the status quo? Hell no. Is it equal? I suppose not. So “equalism” is also a simplistic way to look at things.
True, not everyone makes rational decisions and things like racism and misogyny will be persistent issues. And people can fight them under whatever banner they like, I’m not attacking these movements. But I will continue to teach my son to make decisions regardless labels, gender, race, etc. and maybe the world will actually -become- a better place.
September 27, 2014 — 9:15 AM
James A. Ritchie says:
I believe firmly in equal pay for equal work, assuming there’s also equal experience, equal time actually working a job. This often isn’t taken into account, and very, very often, a woman earning eighty cents to a man’s dollar is equal pay because of time at the job.
I also know a woman with a name many would recognize, and she replaced a man when he decided to leave the job after only two years. She just found out she’s receiving only seventy-five percent of what his starting salary was. Is this unfair. Most I talk to assume it is. But the fact is that he received what he did because that’s what he asked for. She received what she does because that’s what she asked for. She signed a contract, so she’s stuck for the duration.
Man or woman, I see no reason why a business should pay anyone more than whatever they ask for.
Anyway, that eighty cents to the dollar is not nearly as cut and dried as many try to make it. Equality doesn’t mean equal money without equal time at the job, or without equal results when you;re on the job, or a number of other things. It certainly doesn’t mean “comparison jobs”, trying to say two job are equally difficult, so demand the same pay. Sorry, but that’s not how it works. Salary depends on how valuable a n employee is to the business, how much profit that employee generates, and, frankly, just like the woman I know, how much that employee is willing to work for.
As for bullying, no, the victim should not share in the blame, but they often do, and they always will. This is human nature. If human nature were different, there would be no bullies. No fight comes without consequences, good and bad. And I will say that quite a bit of what’s called bullying these days is also pure bullshit. The political correctness in schools today, and the politics, are the purest, smelliest, freshest bullshit ever squeezed out of a bull’s ass.
The notion that all women are feminists gets wearisome, too. I’m not a all sure that a majority are feminists in the loosest sense of the word, and I know only a small percentage are the more radical feminists.
September 27, 2014 — 4:41 PM
Amy Raby says:
Check out this study, which examines what happens when women negotiate for a higher salary.
http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
Short answer: they are perceived negatively in ways that men are not. Women have to walk a tightrope in the workplace. If they are assertive, they are perceived as more competent but less likeable. Men don’t have to make that choice. If they are assertive, they are perceived as more competent AND more likeable.
So the reason women don’t negotiate salary as often as men do may just be because they’re being smart. They know that negotiating will have a negative impact on them. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. There was a recent high-profile case where a women tried to negotiate her starting salary and benefits, and the offer was flat-out rescinded.
September 27, 2014 — 11:09 PM
Rio says:
I like the idea of humanism or egalitarianism or whatever you want to call it, but the way it’s used is usually horrible. I feel like people who call themselves humanists are usually men who just want to find some way to make feminism about their needs because they lack the ability to care about the rights of anyone who they can’t directly relate to. They just want to find some way to make feminism about them while at the same time trying to shame women for being so selfish as to argue for equal rights for women while ignoring the poor, disenfranchised, beaten-down men.
October 9, 2014 — 10:07 PM
Jesus Christ says:
Sorry, “settling” at 80 cents? Don’t think so.
The ’77 Cents on the Dollar’ Myth About Women’s Pay
October 20, 2014 — 12:22 PM
Madeline says:
I can understand the principles behind this; I agree with a lot of it and respect all of that. The only problem i find with this is that it negates the fact that men are victims too in our society. I think its incredibly unfair that us women tend to demonize men and seem to be of the opinion that every male is a pervert and that they are all dangerous (not a view i share) i think that its unfortunate that the term “equalist” doesnt have the same force and backing that “feminist” does; I dont call myself an equalist because I don’t want to have to do anything about the issues that bother me, i call myself such because I simply feel its a more accurate term. Both sides of the playing field need to be leveled in my opinion, not just the women’s side; there may be separate issues at hand between the two sexes, but they are both being treated unfairly
December 11, 2014 — 5:35 PM
Made this to say Hello says:
Welp.
At first I thought I was about to get a post explaining why feminists don’t call themselves Equalists (like I). Instead I read a post that after, “A few problems, actually” , proceeded to make generalized metaphors that actually make little connection to the original topic. You didn’t even straw man the topic, you simply avoided it and compared it to money and bullying.
First off, the money metaphor. Watch the following and listen to the reasons as to possibly why women might make less than men.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_sGn6PdmIo
Because after reading the money metaphor that you claim won’t generalize genders, in fact does, you generalize that ALL men make the full dollar, and that ALL women make less. This is wrong. The vast majority of men make about the 80cents for their labor, because the few who make the most money are far less in number. But either way, both types of men and women who make little or more money, work for it. Yet you throw that out as if it does not happen, that the man simply got that dollar for being a man. Where the hell is that dollar when I need money and have no job?
But rather than elaborate on this and answer why it is a problem you simply slide into another metaphor within a metaphor. The “Key” portion.
“It would be easy to say, as a man with a full dollar in your pocket, that everyone should have the same amount of money. But that’s ambiguous. Generic. It has no goal, no task, no specific channel of action. We need to be specific — we need to be able to point to that woman sitting right there and say, “Godfuckingdamnit, how do we put more money in her pocket?””
Who the heck is saying this? Because as I see it, I earned that dollar, and if I earned it, than anyone can if they worked hard for it.
“It’s like being in a room with a locked door. Someone needs to pick the lock to escape, so it’s worthless to say, “Well, I think all doors should be open.” Yeah, that’s super-fucking great as a theory, but seriously, we need to deal with the door standing in our way first.”
Excuse me? No the doors aren’t open, but saying only we men have the key is ludicrous. We weren’t born with it. We were taught the key just like the girls next to us and earned it. Everyone has this key if they work for it.
And women have. First wave feminists over came SO many odds and earned their key to vote, and their key to equal representation and their key to not HAVE to be mothers and get paid jobs. Yet you throw that out too.
As an Equalist, I find it sickening that you think the “key” is a physical object that women don’t have that the men do. That the women are unable to get this key unless a man gives it to them.
Now the “Bullying/Tattle” metaphor.
It is bullshit that bullying happens. But you are making a metaphor and not explaining it more. Who is tattling? Who being bullied? Who is the higher power beyond the bully and the tattler?
Because for one. The teacher does not punish the victim for tattling, not the good teachers anyway. Second, who is the tattler and who is the bully and who is the teacher? Are women the tattlers? Well, that would make men the bullies. Wait. WHO IS THE TEACHER? More men? no, we can’t stop generalizing now! It must be Society. But wait! Society has both men and women.
Unless you believe otherwise? Nevermind, regardless I can easily flip flop this in any way and still be correct, because it is so generalized that almost anything can be correct. The bullies are the feminists, the men are the tattlers who tell on the fem/bullies to the teacher, society. Society looks at the tattlers and calls them tattling-sexists who are getting in the way of progressing feminism. There. This negates your whole point by elimination simply for existing.
The “Lion’s Share” metaphor is a mirror to the money metaphor and deserves the same response.
“Feminism is there to address a very specific set of deficits.”
Yes. It DID. As said before they fought bravely and won rights and privileges. Now they need a job. Just like the rest of us. In this capitalist society you need skills and a drive to work hard. Nothing is ever handed to you, it was earned at some point. There are instances where certain people are born to wealth, however this is not biased to men, and even then someone earned that privilege to provide very well for their kids.
“And if you’re not a feminist…
…then you’re really not much of an equalist, or a humanist, or an egalitarian. Meaning, it’s hard to say you’re for all SHAPES if you won’t be there for SQUARES in particular, you see what I mean? Being a feminist is part of it. As I see it, being a feminist isn’t taking anything away from anybody. It’s there to give, not remove — it’s all additive, not subtractive. And that, gents, is why I’m #HeForShe, and not just #WeForWe. I don’t need to confirm a world where you share with me, because the flow of power has already gone the other way. We need to learn to share.”
.
..
WHAT? This means to me that you confirm AND deny that feminism is an offshoot subgroup of equalism, humanism, and or egalitarianism because their connection to each other then proceed to NOT be part of #WeForWe because you don’t see them (men and women) as equals. You also continue with this claim that feminism is there to give not take. I wish, the problem is that this is impossible, as nothing can only be created into nothing. Then, again, you say at the end, “We need to learn to share.” Share what?! You just said they aren’t going to take anything! What is this thing, this tangible thing that does not make women equal to men, this thing that we need to share, this thing that apparently I don’t know about and that you have not named. I’ll bet you will call it male privilege, yeah, that privilege to work, and to live always working. If they want that, than good luck because I don’t even have it, because I can’t get ANY work and the work I do get, are literally shoveling shit, you know pumping septic tanks. It’s available, male or female, just needs LABOR.
We (men) don’t have women’s keys to their own life (except in certain circumstances where slavery is still an issue), it is earned through work.
So no. Even after all this you still do not answer “Why (you) Prefer The Word “Feminist” Over “Equalist”.
Thank you for reading./
December 12, 2014 — 3:16 AM
oregenoBill says:
The analogy I don’t agree with is saying we should think of feminism as money as opposed to a balance. I would argue that they are the same thing in the real world.
Yes the point of the money analogy is to say the goal is not to take away from men but to add more to women.
However in the real world let’s say there is x amount of money. If women earn more money then logically the percentage that goes to men would decrease because money is finite.
However I do agree that the term feminism addresses the fact that women have less.
December 13, 2014 — 8:25 AM
Darren says:
Does the author think that being an egalitarian means you take no actions? Because the author seems to repeat the point “yes being egalitarian is good and everything but you still have to DO STUFF.” I agree, but isn’t any theory capable of having “non-doers”? I don’t understand why the author seems to think action and egalitarianism cannot and do not mix. Egalitarian doesn’t mean admitting everyone should have a key and then holding onto it. In practice it would mean sharing it. It’s just that egalitarians keep an eye toward sharing with everyone (although they may prioritize based on immediate need, etc.) while feminism is focused on sharing with women. Prioritization is important, because that’s how egal’s are not “pie in the sky unfocused everything for everybody” types like you describe. If the oppressed group that needs help turns out to be women, then the egal’s will help them. But when another group turns out to need help, the egal’s will help them while the feminist will stick with the women. In short: you attempt to discredit egalitarianism by divorcing it from any action and making it seem unfocused and thus uncaring, but this is inaccurate. That’s why egalitarianism is the superior position.
January 27, 2015 — 12:08 PM
George says:
You get it.
According to the poster we need to fight for women’s rights before fighting for anyone else since they are so disadvantaged. Personally I want to fight for the biggest infringement on rights that I observe regardless of who it is for. Fight the most important battle to win the war (the war is against discrimination regardless who it effects). If you only fight for women’s rights then you’re just as sexist as the people you’re fighting.
January 27, 2015 — 4:57 PM
Lowell Wolfe says:
I understand your belief in the term “feminist” over the term “equalist”. I, and other males, see it on a different axis. Not only does equalist fit women’s fight towards gender equality, but it also keeps the scale balanced. Not only do we want the woman with 80 pennies to have 100 pennies, we want both sides to have the same amount of pennies regardless of who they are. And if the amount of pennies is dropped or raised on one side, it must be on the other to keep the scales balanced.
This is not directed as an insult, but as a different side of a constant battle.
February 20, 2015 — 4:42 PM