Not All Men, But Still Too Many Men

[Edit: turning comments off. I figure nothing good is gonna come after 450 comments.]

A young man felt spurned by women and shot people because of it. He drove up and fired a weapon out of a BMW and committed murder, leaving behind a video and a manifesto about his rage against women. He felt rejected by them. He was reportedly a follower of MRA (Men’s Rights Activism), which is a group of men who are upset because they feel they have an unequal set of rights in a few key areas, which is a lot like a rich guy who is mad at a homeless guy because the homeless guy is standing in his favorite patch of sunlight. (The term “men’s rights” is roughly analogous to the phrase “white power,” and equally creepy.) Yes, we can talk about gun rights and mental health issues because neither are properly addressed in this country. But we also need to talk about the entitlement of men and the objectification of women.

Most of the men who read this blog are, I hope and assume, not entitled piss-bags who think that they are owed affection by women, as if that’s the role of women in this life, to be willing and charitable receptacles for our urges. To be punching bags and accessories. To reiterate and sound the horn just the same: women don’t owe you anything. Whether you’re an alpha male or a wanna-be alpha, some faux bro-dude bad-ass or some repressed alley-dwelling CHUD, it matters little. I don’t care who you are; your maleness does not entitle you to anything.

You may have been told otherwise.

Culture wants us to think that. That being a guy comes with a rider like we’re Van Halen demanding a fucking bowl full of green M&Ms or some shit, but I’m here to tell you, that isn’t true. It’s a myth. You’re entitled to nothing, and yet, ironically, you’re born with this pesky thing called privilege. And sure, someone out there is already mad I’ve invoked that word, that being a dude is hard on its own and privilege is an illusion and blah blah blah something about divorced men and prostate cancer, but just remember that the men go on dates thinking they won’t get laid, and women go on dates thinking they might get raped, punched, maybe killed. Remember that as a man you can say all kinds of shit and add “lol” at the end of it and nobody gives a shit, but as a woman anything you say might be interpreted as antagonistic and end up with rape threats or death threats. Remember that any seemingly safe space — train station, bookstore, social media, city park — is an opportunity for a man to catch a train or read a book, but is also an opportunity for a woman to be the subject of threat or sexual violence.

Remember that men get paid more, get to do more, get to be more.

I understand that as a man your initial response to women talking about misogyny, sexism, rape culture and sexual violence is to wave your hands in the air like a drowning man and cry, “Not all men! Not all men!” as if to signal yourself as someone who is not an entitled, presumptive fuck-whistle, but please believe me that interjecting yourself in that way confirms that you are. Because forcing yourself into safe spaces and unwelcome conversations makes you exactly that.

Instead of telling women that it’s not all men, show them.

Show them by listening and supporting.

Show them by cleaning the dogshit out of your ears and listening to their stories — and recognize that while no, it’s not “all men,” it’s still “way too many men.” Consider actually reading the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter not to look for places to interject and defend your fellow men, but as a place to gain insight and understanding into the experiences women have. That hashtag should serve as confirmation that women very often experience the spectrum of sexism and rape culture from an all-too-early age. Recognize that just because “not all men” are gun-toting, women-hating assholes fails to diminish the fact that sexism and rape culture remain firmly entrenched and institutional within our culture.

Because if your response to the shooting is to defend men (or worse, condemn women) instead of speaking out against this type of violence and attitude, then you best check yourself.

This isn’t the time to talk about nice guys. Or friend zoning. Or men’s rights. Or rejection.

This isn’t the time to ride up as standard-bearers for the realm of menfolk.

You have privilege, so use it. You’re not a white knight, but if other men try to objectify women or talk down to them — step up or walk away. If you have a son, teach him about consent and drive home the point that the 100% of the fault in a rape case is on the rapist, not the victim. Help other men — you, your children, your friends — reach a place of empathy.

This isn’t about you. Don’t derail. Don’t pull that mansplaining bullshit.

Shut your mouth and don’t speak over them.

Open your ears and listen.

Open your eyes and see.

Thus endeth the lesson, gents.

459 responses to “Not All Men, But Still Too Many Men”

  1. Ten guys (must’ve been guys) unsubscribed? When it comes to deciding who’s on the wrong side of this debate (which shouldn’t be a debate at all), that’s called self-selection. So losing them is kinda like losing the party-crashers who drink too much, tell bad jokes, double dip the salsa, and yes, stare down the front of women’s dresses. I think with all the tweeting etc. going on with this post, you’ll more than make up for a few lost subscribers. Thanks, Chuck!

  2. You do realize he had been previously diagnosed with Aspergers disorder right? Aspergers is often misdiagnosed in young sociopaths because they both display awkwardness and lack of empathy….and many doctors are afraid to tell parents their kid is a sociopath. So they slap them with Aspergers. This was not just some angry woman hating man. He wasn’t wired right in the head. Never had been.

    • Hey, now— Aspberger’s has nothing to do with violence. It’s tough for young people with Asperger’s because they don’t “get it” with social cues, but calling someone with Asperger’s syndrome “not wired right” or a “sociopath” is outrageous and stupid.
      Your privilege is showing, Jack.

    • Tim, I was an education specialist, and worked with students with ASD’s, including Aspergers, for over a decade. In fact, I was an ASD’s diagnostician for a large suburban school district. I wanted to clarify some of your misconceptions about kids with Aspergers and mental illness.

      It is a falsehood, that kids with ASD/Aspergers, are unable to demonstrate empathy, or a whole range of human emotions. They have a conscience, and know right from wrong, depending on their age–just like other kids. They do display social awkwardness, but that is almost never done in a sociopathic manner.

      You are correct about the misdiagnosis, but not in the way you think: parents don’t want their kids labeled EBD–which is where kids with sociopathic traits go. They would rather have them labeled as being ASD/Aspergers, because those kids get more help and more services.

      Finally, about the medical or educational communities misdiagnosing kids on purpose for any reason? Aspergers kids almost never demonstrate the “triad of sociopathy”, which is “the bed wetter, the fire setter, and the animal getter” (someone who tortures and kills animals). It is possible, in most cases, to distinguish ASD from a mental illness. It is also possible that a child has BOTH! Any service delivery system that couldn’t distinguish between the two, or treat them both, would be guilty of malpractice. Any child who murders someone is severely, mentally disturbed. The fact that he had Aspergers would only be a secondary causal condition.

    • Interesting point about misdiagnosed sociopathy. Whether he was actually a sociopath, that’s a matter of speculation.

      But even the “miswired” interact with the ideas that are prevalent in the broader society. Schitzophrenic Christians imagine themselves hearing the voices of angels, not valkyries or djinns. This guy wasn’t just wrong in the head. Our broader culture and our media is steeped in misogyny, and in the MRA world, these toxic ideas get concentrated. Even if the shooter was mentally ill, his mental illness was steeped in a cesspool of dangerous ideas and allowed to simmer until the lid blew off.

      If you cross out all the “and that’s why I will kill you all” bits of the manifesto, you’re left with a lot of sentiments that wouldn’t be out of place on any MRA/PUA forum.

      • I doubt he was a sociopath. Sociopaths are manipulative individuals who thrive on using others. This guy was self-entitled, for sure, and he shares this characteristics with all sociopaths, but he does not strike me as a sociopath. Sociopaths derive pleasure from acting long term, and not going in flames like this guy did.

    • Why do people keep bringing this up like it matters? Aspergers doesn’t create misogyny. And neither does sociopathy. And any doctor who would diagnose a kid with Aspergers to avoid telling parents their kid is a sociopath is a coward and should lose their license. And mentally ill or not, his hatred of women was the trigger that made him do this, and it’s so weird to me that people seem so desperate to protect misogynists in this way. Would you say the same if he just went out and shot black people? Oh, he wasn’t a racist, he was just crazy.

  3. *Would like to add that him being mentally ill doesn’t necessarily excuse his actions, since he clearly knew exactly what he was doing and it came from a place of hatred. I find people who are sticking up for him saying that he isn’t responsible/aware of his actions to be incredibly patronizing of mentally ill people. Like, “Awww, he was mentally ill, he doesn’t understand normal human stuff!!! Poor baby!!!” Just…no. He clearly had problems, but to blame it solely on mental illness makes this into a purely individual problem while completely ignoring the cultural context in which it happened, the effects of sexist culture on an individual, and the larger cultural problems of which this horrible event was merely a more extreme symptom.

    I think with guys like this it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, with the circular logic of: “Women are stuck-up bitches who don’t recognize a good guy like me.” I don’t know where that starts; maybe it’s a way of insulating themselves against rejection before asking someone out — so if they are rejected, it’s always the other person’s fault? So then they treat women like crap because they think women are awful, then women don’t go out with them because the guy is a jerk, then the guy’s reasoning becomes, “See, I knew women were horrible, women hate me, therefore I hate them” and they act like they hate women (which, obviously, gets them less dates). People are always trying to find the “right” thing to attract the opposite sex. Here’s a starter. Try being a decent human being who treats others like decent human beings. Strange, but I find that if you behave that way, others will want to be around you more…But this is such a double standard because I hear from women that they’re afraid of acting “too nice” or “too friendly” because others, usually men, might interpret that as a sign of sexual interest (and then get angry when it’s not).

    The tone I sense when guys try to say “Not all men are like that!!!” is often one of horror and discomfort. They can’t handle that someone harassed their friend, wife, girlfriend, family member, etc. so they try to downplay it. Or assure them that hey, it’s OK since I don’t harass you! Which is nice but not helpful since obviously the woman wasn’t talking about you, she was talking about OTHER MEN and explaining that at least YOU don’t harass her doesn’t make her any safer, it doesn’t negate the harassment that DID happen, and it doesn’t even make you look better. Downplaying it just makes their female friends feel like they aren’t being taken seriously.

    • There’s a meme kicking around that says, “We’ve reached a place where politeness is mistaken as flirtation.” My best friend is like that. She is open, charming, happy, and pretty. She is also a stalker magnet. She brought the 60-year-old guy who mowed her lawn a glass of water. He lunged at her.

      • My female friends and I certainly encountered this kind of thing back in the days of our youth in the 80s and 90s, but maybe it’s more common now because disengagement from others in public space (thanks to all those electronic devices) is more the norm. Any form of eye contact or pleasant interaction must mean she’s overcome with lust, right?

  4. Hi there from the UK. In this globalised world the shootings are news here too. We tut tut over your crazy (lack of) gun laws, but the thing that gets me is that as well as guns and wealth inequality, the other thing you guys are global leaders at is porn. Most guys use it, most want to believe the women when they say they love it, and most slut-shame any woman they actually identify as doing it.

    Never mind men’s rights, look at porn. It suggests that every woman is on permanent heat, which means if no one wants a facial from me, there must be some kind of problem. I know you guys live in the land of the free, but you have a serious problem…

    • Simon,

      You can’t blame our culture’s sexism on porn. In fact, I think that reinforces the concept that women who wish to freely express their sexuality are overwhelmingly shamed and identified as voiceless nobodies. There are many women involved in porn who do love it, who find it fulfilling and empowering because they are in control of what they do and who they do it with, and they enjoy the performance aspect of it.

      I’m not entirely sure what your central argument is, but it reads that you don’t personally believe that women in porn are into doing it, and that you do believe that porn reinforces the narrative that men should be allowed to view and treat women as sexual objects without regard for their personal choices and respect.

      I want to point out that while porn is overwhelmingly made to target a male audience, that does not mean the female performers are fucked up people with weird sexual issues and no agency being forced into gross situations for money. Consider that they do their jobs for many, many reasons, and that, like you, they are free adults making independent choices about their sexuality. Their work in no way invites, excuses or promotes an attitude of male superiority or entitlement.

    • Hi there from Australia. You are patronising, and completely missing the point and intent of this post.
      Cheers, mate.

    • Hi from another part of the UK.

      I’d say that porn has very little to do with the sexism that led to this issue. It’s odd that you’d put the blame of porn when the mass media (movies, TV, news articles, a ton of things more culturally acceptable than porn) affect cultural attitudes towards women in much more insidious ways.

    • Another hi from the UK.

      First of all, even if the US is a giant in the porn industry, we’re talking about the internet here, which is global. There are consumers everywhere, including the UK, so arguably they should be equally affected by it. A lot of media here comes from America, so the effect on society really shouldn’t have any bearing on whether it was produced in this or that country.

      Second of all, I’d argue that porn itself isn’t an issue in and of itself, as long as the workers are protected and consenting. As others have said, many women in the industry are empowered by their jobs. Although I do agree there are many problems within parts of the porn industry, I’d argue that the main issues come from the atrocious gaps in sex education, and the lack of education/conversation about pornography. We still don’t fully understand or acknowledge the effects of the digital revolution on our society and the individual within it, and our education and discourse really need to catch up to where we are as a result of it.

      Now let’s talk about teenagers and porn.

      If there is no adequate discourse for young people teaching them about sex, then I do believe that pornography can lead to unrealistic view of it and misconstructed expectations of sexual partners. Preventing children and teenagers from viewing explicit sexual material isn’t enough or even fool-proof, it’s out there and unfortunately, as as things stand, many kids WILL find it. This is something that we need to accept as a society and address it accordingly.

      We need more information to be available to young people who do come across porn. More parents who are willing to teach their children that a vast majority of it depicts a (male) fantasy, that even if some women (or men, but that’s not the issue here) enjoy being ‘degraded’ during sex, it doesn’t mean they enjoy being treated that way in their daily life, and so on and so forth.

      We’re not going to get anywhere by ignoring the issue.

    • Most guys use it, but most guys don’t go on a shooting spree, which rather suggests something lacking in the cause-effect here.

  5. The post above where the woman found at least 15 common experiences in the hashtag stream really brought it home to me. I’m bold and brash and eccentric as hell. I’ve traveled extensively alone and never considered myself a victim. But when I really think about it, I’ve lived a good chunk of the list.

    The Fortune 5 executive manager commenting on “how much he loves my red shoes” on my first day of work.

    Feeling “something” pressed into my hip and hot breath in my ear on a Paris subway.

    And for those pining for the “good old days of family values,” this is nothing new. 30+ years ago I was the only rider on a city bus heading home from school. At a stop, two young men got on. One sat in the seat in front of me, the other in the seat across the aisle. The one in front turned to me and, in a low voice, said the single foulest thing I’ve ever heard.

    There was no way to hide my fear. The bus lurched to a stop and while it took on passengers, I darted out the back door, no clue where I was, but knowing it was a better place. It took me hours to catch another bus and make my way home

    To this day, I have nightmares about being lost on buses and strange streets.

    We women have more than our share of obnoxious traits and problems. But we aren’t prey.

    • “We women have more than our share of obnoxious traits and problems. But we aren’t prey.”

      Very nice of you to note that you’re not prey.

      But it wasn’t enough for me. “We women have more than our share of obnoxious traits and problems”.

      First of all, I’m sure you didn’t mean that women are obnoxious and have big personality problems. I don’t mean to suggest you do.

      But what I really want to say is that the statement “women have more than our share” is bullshit. Lots of people have Lots of problems! That’s just life! It sucks! You have a lot! That Sucks!

      But no one is out there doling out “fair shares” of problems!!!!!!!

      • If that’s all you got out of it, then roll on and be well. What I meant (even though under no obligation to explain it) is women are just people with all the problems of anyone else. Nice and nasty, wise and gasbags, smart and stupid. The basest rankest female troll who joins with the good old boys to attack women on-line still isn’t prey. Yet many men feel that any woman they see is fair game, no matter the circumstances.

    • My grandmother, who is 85, worked as a secretary for most of the time between turning 18 and taking an early retirement at 55 and she has some stories that absolutely horrify me about people openly trying to look up her skirt and bosses frankly (though she was married) telling her they wanted to jump her bones. Just because people looked the other way when it happened doesn’t mean it was okay or that women did anything but tolerate it.

  6. I have been interested & horrified, reading through various articles regarding this incident. This happened in my old neighborhood, and my first action (upon reading the news) was to call my friends there and make sure they & theirs were okay.

    My second action was to follow the story & find the details.

    My third action was to throw shit.

    Every article has an angle. A finger points directly from every paragraph written [about Elliot Rogers’ killing spree] to some ideology or organization. The NRA & irresponsible gun-owners. Misogyny & rape culture. MRAs and PUAs. Entitlement. Asberger’s & the mentally ill. Lack of care for the mentally ill. Even: Blonde sluts & teases are being held responsible on some forums, for not being willing junk receptacles.


    It’s not ONE of those things. It is ALL of those things.

    Misogynist ideology & poor mental health care combined with low standards for gun sales & white male entitlement/privelege/wealth to create a situation that has killed & injured HUMANS. Men & women. Women & men.

    It’s time for us to all stand together & fucking fix it. I’m a woman married to a man, we have a daughter & a son. WHY isn’t it safer for them than it was for us? That is nonsense.

    We need change NOW & it can only be achieved together.

    Thank you, Mr. Wendig, for your wonderful article. As a woman, I deeply appreciate your feminist caring. As a mother, I am grateful there are people like you adding your voice. As a human, it gives me hope to read intelligent appeals.



  7. Did you really have to try and draw a seriously flawed parallel between guns and treating people poorly? I’ve carried for more than a dozen years, and yes I’ve been put in the unfortunate position of having to defend a stranger’s life. I know the real price of having made the choices I’ve made. It’s not really something you can understand until you’ve walked around in those shoes. It’s not the guns, its the people. Because criminals don’t care how many laws you pass, its not like they where fallowing them to begin with, it does not mater if its legal for them to have, anything. A head full of bad wiring is something entirely different, it is something you can fix by writing legislation. If you really want to fix issues like this, stop being a tool by blaming the tool. Its a mental health issue, get in there and back up all the folks that are trying to get these people help before they do terrible things to other people.

    There are not enough mental health professionals.
    There are not enough beds for all the people seeking help, let alone all the people needing it.
    There is not enough compassion for other people, period.
    We need more average, faceless, nameless, people in the crowd, to support changing how the metal health cares systems work.

    …and as far as your point about how to treat women. It’s not just women, its everybody you meet. There was a time when the rule was to treat everyone you meet like your grandmother. I realize that some tools have no idea how to treat the elderly with respect, but some people do. Maybe it shouldn’t be a knee jerk reaction to assume that everything other people do comes with some sort of self gratifying motive. Bad things happen. I’ve been mugged, stabbed, beaten and accused of all kinds of things in my life. I still open doors for strangers, I still let others go first. Can’t let a hand full of tools become the representation of an entire group. Can’t use those people as an excuse to treat the next person I meet badly.

    Believe, I have good reason to hate if I wanted to be that person. I can’t be that person. I don’t understand how anyone can want to be a monster like that.

    I can’t count how many times I’ve opened a door, and I’ve been starred out like their trying to figure out what I want from them. Not just women, men, lots of people. I don’t know how many times I’ve pulled out a chair or offered to give my seat to someone else, and was read the riot act for not respecting someone as an equal. They where right, I put them first, but apparently it was some how offensive. I’ve offered to help move things no one should have to move by themselves, only to have them shoo me away at the most polite end of reactions. The far end, I can’t believe anyone would act like that when offered some help.

    My point is that, everyone needs to check themselves. There is way too much attitude. Way too much self serving, self gratifying and suspicion in the world. It’s not easy to be a nice guy anymore. A nice anyone, anymore.

    We are at a point where saying hello to a stranger earns you a dirty look rather than a polite smile or nod to acknowledge your friendliness. /shakes head. What the hell?

    We’re at a point where you can’t trust anyone. You can’t offer yourself to help other people without having to seriously think about how the other person is going to take advantage of you. This is not the world we should be living in. That’s not even civilized anymore, its a bunch of animals. To be honest, my world is getting smaller because there are less people every year I want around me. No one cares, the wolves are packing up, they can’t even see how that’s a bad thing.

    Hell, I’ll admit, I wont ever make the cover of GQ, but I’m not a monster either. I don’t deserve to be treated like that, why on earth would I do it to someone else? I don’t understand why people don’t ask themselves that question more often. How would I like to be treated? Then do that for someone else.

    I’ll be frank, I’ve stopped looking for someone to share my life with, I have literally run out of will to deal with yet another sack of crazy. It would be really great if the tools in our society would stop destroying every woman they meet. It would be great if women could look at a guy and wonder about the great things he might have to offer instead of thinking about all the horrible things he might do, instead of spending all of her effort trying to find clues about what terrible things he might be planning. I just can’t do it anymore, I’m worn out, I don’t have anything left in me to deal with another bag of crazy.

    Fuck. I’m going to take that one step further. It would be great if people could look at each other and think about the great things they may have to offer instead of suspect them of being a terrible person until proven otherwise.

    • The numbers don’t lie. Tighter gun control always causes more crime, especially violent crime against women. He ran people over with his car. Shall we ban them? As far as your politeness goes, I always go out of the way to thank a man who is a gentleman. You sound like a good guy. You need to look for quality women and one place to find a quality woman is at church. 🙂 don’t give up.

      • Here in Japan, we have super tight gun laws. You cannot own them without rare exceptions for hunting rifles and shotguns. Handguns are completely outlawed.

        Last year, in a population of 150,000,000 people (half the United States population), we had 14 gun deaths. And it’s not like people just decided to kill the same number of people with knives. We had 939 murders. The US had 14,827 murders. Over 15 times as many, with 2 times the population.

        So there’s something to be said for the fact that you can’t be shot with guns that don’t exist.

        Numbers don’t lie. We have VERY tight gun control. Some of the tightest in the world. So your statement that gun control always causes more crime? No. It doesn’t.

      • “Tighter gun control always causes more crime”, except in Australia, where stricter gun control laws caused gun deaths to drop dramatically.

        • Australia and Japan are ISLANDS. They do not have Mexico across the border with gun runners trucking in loads of guns and ammo every single day to the criminals. The criminals in the U.S. will always always be well stocked with guns no matter how many laws are passed unless they build a wall across the border to stop the trucking of illegal firearms from central and south America. In the U.S. and in many other countries that are not islands, tighter gun control creates more violent crime because the criminals do not care about gun laws.

          We have our Constitution that protects our gun rights so I don’t care what other countries are doing. Other countries do not abide by our Constitution and we do not abide by theirs.

          I have less than zero desire to live in Japan, be like Japan or emulate Japan. Japan also has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, so they trade one problem for another. They’re notoriously insular and racist and believe highly in racial purity, are against diversity and against immigration. Comparing the U.S. to Japan is like comparing apples to hamburgers. I am not saying this as a criticism of Japan. They are free to live as they like. I’m an American and I am concerned with what works for us, not them.

          Fascists like Hitler always took away the guns from the populous because they knew that was the beginning of total control. I believe in our American rights and I don’t care if people in other countries are willing to give those rights away. Here in this country, we are not willing to give up total control to the government.

          That guy killed some of his victims by stabbing and running them over with cars. The 911 terrorist hijackings were done with box cutters. If a crazy psychopath wants to kill someone, they will find a way to do it. Taking away people’s guns in America only gives the criminals more power.

          • It wasn’t really the right choice of words. I didn’t mean to say they traded the suicide problem. I meant that every society has problems and what works for one society doesn’t necessarily work for another. Our geography plays a very big part in the gun, drug and human trafficking problems that we face.

          • This is a distraction. One of the same ones Mr Wendig is talking about. As is the “mental illness” distraction. Statistically, the mentally ill are more likely to be the victims of violent. crime than the perpetrators of them, but again, that’s a side note that does not address *this SPECIFIC problem*. That of cultural misogyny.

            Here’s the thing. In Australia we had a massacre. Look it up. Port Arthur.

            It was perpetrated by a bloke who had some mental health issues. He used legal firearms (not legal to him).

            The response was: the Conservative (yes! Conservative! OMG!) government of the time tightened gun legislation.

            Australia does not have a powerful NRA-style lobby, so it succeeded. Many legal gun owners happily traded in their firearms (even the ones that were legal after the legislation). Farmers and hunters and the military and the police and enthusiasts kept their guns.

            It hasn’t happened again.

            There are no gun runners? Sure there are. There’s just little market. Japan and Australia don’t have the culture the USA does–and in Australia’s case, we historically had bushrangers and have outback farmers and plenty of “Gun-style” culture, but we still don’t have the same sorts of extremes.

            Again, its a distraction. This is no way addresses what the PERPETRATOR OF THE CRIME openly STATED WAS HIS REASON for committing said crime: he hated women and wanted to kill them.

          • The UK has a lot of similar problems to the US, including the same problem of people with guns crossing the border, but our tight gun control laws still keep the gun-related death toll ridiculously low.

            Gun control laws don’t give the criminals more power. They ensure that criminals can’t be seen with a gun in their hands without a ton of people going “Holy shit!” and calling the cops. They ensure that anyone travelling with a gun in their car will be instantly arrested. The laws make life DIFFICULT for criminals, as it should be.

      • False analogy? We’re not going to ban cars because he didn’t kill anyone with his car. He killed 3 men with knives and one with a gun. He killed 2 women with a gun. We’re not going to ban guns either but it shouldn’t be easier to get a gun permit than it is to get a driver’s license. After all, no one is hiding a BMW in their coat pocket.

    • Hello, did you read the article? You just did exactly what the author… oh never mind.

  8. Here’s what I don’t get. Back in high school, I was once a lot like your average misogynist, thinking I was “entitled” to something, until one day in the summer before junior year I had an epiphany about how much of a douchebag I had become. I resolved from that day forward to treat women only with kindness and respect, regardless of how they treated me.

    I still do everything in my power to that effect to this day. I know now that I’m not entitled to anything, and if women don’t like me, it must be a problem with me. After all, what is more likely to be correct: I have a problem, or 3 billion human beings have a problem?

    The thing is, I don’t have any clue as to how to fix my problem or even identify it. I’ve bounced this issue off a couple of trusted female friends (I would have once called this the “friend zone”, but I’ve come to value such people for who they are and just the fact that they are even willing to acknowledge me as a human being), and they all said I needed to be more assertive and positive about myself to become more attractive to women. But I can’t do that. I have spent the better part of a decade working hard at removing those very aspects from myself. I can’t just will myself to become those things without slipping back to what I once was; I know that darkness is still in me somewhere, and if I don’t fix it, I don’t know if I’d ever be a worthwhile boyfriend or husband to anyone.

    I’ve been through medication and therapy to treat depression before, but I’ve never been able to truly feel good about myself without feeling concerned that I would walk back down that dark path again. Is there any hope for me, or am I doomed to truly be forever alone?

    • So, this advice is gonna start out sucking, but, yes, the first thing you have to do is assume that you will be alone forever. Then you need to start making yourself someone you’d want to be with forever. Make yourself good food, exercise, learn how to dance or play music or rock climb, read good books, take yourself to the movies with your friends or alone and buy yourself some popcorn because you want to let yourself know how much you like you. It’s gonna take some time, but liking yourself and being a good partner to yourself is probably the best practice you can have for being a good partner for another person, and in the meantime, you’ll feel better and like yourself more.

      You’ve taken a really good first step on this by acknowledging that no one else has an obligation to like you or find you sexy. Getting therapy and/or medication is a great thing to do as well. Now work on being responsible to find yourself likable and sexy, and assume that rather than it being a “problem” with you, it’s just that different people have different tastes. If you’re more of a strawberry-balsamic designer ice cream than a plain vanilla, it’s gonna take a little longer to find someone who thinks you’re their favorite flavor.

      I can’t guarantee that someone else will ever want to be with you forever, but you’ll always be there in your bed and your life, so if you make yourself more fun to hang out with, you’ll have a more fulfilling life whether or not there’s another person in it for the long haul. Good luck!

      • This is one of the best and most succinct responses to anything that I have ever seen to that question. May I please steal and use it.

      • A good idea in theory, except for the fact that liking myself was how i turned into a self-entitled douche to begin with. I don’t ever want to go back to being that.

        • Giving yourself a break and accepting yourself for who you are won’t automatically turn you back into, as you say, a self-entitled douche. If you changed because you truly believed your behaviour to be wrong, you won’t forget that lesson so easily.

          I really commend you for working on growing as a person and becoming a better human being, not enough people spend time examining themselves or questioning their own beliefs or behaviour the way you did.

          I might be wrong, but by your mention of junior year I’m gonna guess you’re either in high school or college, or recently finished. Your lack of luck on the relationship/dating front really might be down to not having met the right kind of people.

          In my experience, the best recipe for successful relationships with other people – romantic or not – is first of all, figuring out who you are, what you’re passionate about, what are the values you want to live your life by – finding people who feel similarly, and and building relationships with them.

          It sounds like your issue could be lack of a filter in terms of who YOU would want to start a relationship with.

    • Living in any type of fear is oppression and that is never good. You will never be the perfect husband or boyfriend because nobody is perfect. The fact that you are willing to look at yourself and want to improve makes you a great human being which will make a girl lucky to be with you. Guys who are more shy and don’t paw you on the dance floor make good husbands but it takes us girls awhile to realize that. Some of us have to keep kissing frogs before we recognize a real prince when we meet him. I met my husband in a ballroom dance class. He was so sick of the bar scene he started dancing and liked it. Take up a hobby or volunteer and you will meet people with your same interests. Don’t put friends in the friends category because a friend makes the best spouse.

      • I never said anything about “perfect”. The word I used was “worthwhile”. I want to be able to be worth it to some girl out there, to be able to provide a meaningful connection.

        As for “it takes us girls awhile to realize that”, that argument seems to run counter to what I (and the article itself) believe: that all the blame should be placed on myself, not on others (especially women). I’m pretty sure that wasn’t your intent, but that’s how I felt it came across. It’s just easier to assume I have a “problem” than to say “well girls are too stupid to realize a quality man when they see one”. Because that’s misogynistic. I refuse to go down that road again.

        I already volunteer a lot at a local church I grew up in (during periods when i’m unemployed, I’m there so much you could almost consider it a full-time job in and of itself), but there’s almost nobody my age there, let alone anyone interested in me.

        As for the few female friends I have, I would sure love it if a friend was attracted to me. The biggest things that I find attractive are girls that i’m familiar with and girls that are nice to me. Thus, I’m almost doomed to become attracted at some point to a girl I spend a lot of time around. But they aren’t attracted to me, and that’s their prerogative, not mine. I don’t have any right to say otherwise, so I end up just burying those feelings deep down so I don’t ruin what we do have. To do otherwise is a disservice to both of us.

        • “It’s just easier to assume I have a “problem” than to say “well girls are too stupid to realize a quality man when they see one”.”

          Again, chances are, you don’t have a problem – you just haven’t met the right girl yet.

          “that all the blame should be placed on myself, not on others (especially women)” – this is true when it comes to sexism, racism, homophobia and so on. Accountability for the abuse lies with the abuser.

          But if we’re talking about human relationships and attraction, it’s really not that simple, and often there’s no ‘blame’ anywhere.

          The world we live in leads us to believe that being with someone is some sort of a milestone we should all meet, otherwise there is something wrong with us. Or that relationships automatically mean happiness. None of that is true. There’s nothing wrong with being alone, and being alone doesn’t mean you can’t live a happy and fulfilling life. Focus your energy elsewhere and chances are, you’ll meet the right girl.

          Let me share my favourite video with you:

    • rob, my armchair, stranger-on-the-Internet take is that you are mixing up “assertive” and “being an entitled douchebag”. They’re not at all the same, as your friends pointed out when they said you need to be assertive and positive. Assertive doesn’t mean entitled, pushy, aggressive, obnoxious.

      If you have trouble feeling/acting the difference between those things, keep on with therapy and possibly medication. I don’t mean that in a snarky way at all, just that you mean need help to work through the difference instead of trying to stumble your way through it.

      • Except I literally don’t see any difference between the two at all. The only reason to be assertive about anything is because i want something out of life, and i’m not allowed to want anything at all.

        • Of course you’re allowed to want things – and in fact, your very first comment upthread is you saying that you want something, namely companionship, which is a pretty basic human want.

          Surely you don’t believe that everybody in the world, including people like your female friends, are all entitled douchebags? Because if, objectively, there were no difference whatsoever between ‘assertive’ and ‘douchebag’, that’s what you’d have to believe. I get that you are having trouble finding that difference, such that you shy away from assertiveness lest you take the smallest risk of being a douchebag. But there is a difference. That is something a good therapist and good friends can help you perceive.

          It’s not true, btw, that if you aren’t finding a woman who is interested in you there is something wrong with you. It’s great that you aren’t jumping to the douchebag conclusion of there being something wrong with women, but it doesn’t follow that, conversely, there must be something wrong with you. It just means that for whatever reason, your interest and their interest didn’t match up.

    • If you make your life so awesome that there’s no room for a relationship, you will find yourself inundated with attention. Our reality is subjective, we all look upon the world in a way that is unique and individual. I am sorry that you are hurting, but the fact that you are aware that there is something puts you ahead of a lot of others. I can recommend some books that helped me out, but I really admire you for talking about this.

  9. Thank you. ” no, it’s not “all men,” it’s still “way too many men.”” is a perfect summation. Now, if our kids could all be raised to always first hear a clear, consent like, oh say the word ” yes” or someone initiating the sex act themselves, might get somewhere. To believe that any potential lover not spending at least enough effort to get consent is extremely unlikely to be a good one and most likely a dangerous person. That while there is no excuse for without consent, there is even less validity to the idea that someone deserved to be raped, assaulted or murdered even if in wrong place at wring time, rejecting someone, friend zoning someone, etc.

  10. This is a great post!! But I feel the need to mention that there is a small portion of men who go on dates or go to the bar, and still worry about rape. It’s unlikly but it happens. The rapist however is usually still a man.
    Just to be clear I am a women and on this subject very sensitive from expirance with someone very close to me

  11. Damn, Chuck, that’s some good pandering. Think you could squeeze some book sales from this tragedy?

    I mean, that would be easier than actually opening a discussion about whether or not the perpetrator was an obvious psycopath in desperate need of professional assistance who was ignored by the people around him, resulting in this mess. God forbid people would stop and give a shit about someone’s mental health when we can instead say ‘all men are bad and this happened because we are trained to hate women.’

    But that’s hard. Sexism is easy.

    • I should really just dump your comment into spam, but I’ll refrain because I have a couple things to say.

      At no point is anyone saying that “all men are bad.”

      Some are. And they’re allowed to be and excused to be; that’s the problem. Whether or not the killer was driven by some combination of factors, it remains clear that part of who he was was a person who was influenced by the sexism of others — and, in his wake, we’ve seen lots of folks across social media defending or excusing his actions with more shittily sexist, violent rhetoric. So, whether or not he was sexist or a psychopath or a sexist psychopath, what it tells us is that the culture leading up to this and remaining in its wake is one of misogynistic, violent toxicity.

      Further, a post like this will likely neither lose me sales nor gain them for me.

      I don’t write things like this as part of my brand (which someone on FB suggested) or because I’m “pandering.” This is something I believe, and it’s something that I think is worth talking about, and so I’m talking about it. Full stop.

      If you don’t like it, I might suggest going to another blog.

      — c.

    • Uh, Dude, this kid was the son of a Hollywood director, born into privilege, and under the care of a psychiatrist. None of that was enough. He wanted to create a world where women feared him.

      • You make it sound like being under the care of a pshrink is a good and desirable privilege worth attaining. In my experience, it’s where you go after all other avenues are exhausted. The pshrinks can diagnose and prescribe the drugs that, maybe, just maybe, can make things better.

        • If you need to be, it is. And the idea of shrinks as a last resort is really part of the problem. People who really need help aren’t getting it because of the stigma attached.

          • Clarification: pshrink is a specific slang shortening of psychiatrist. They are the one best trained to diagnose and administer the drugs to cure the ills of the mind. (And are not always successful at that, but our knowledge of the brain’s chemistry is limited currently).

            On the way up to the pshrink, it can be a long arduous path, possibly starting with the GP and working through general therapists and counselors before getting to psychologists. The psychologists may be reluctant to hand one up to the pshrinks. Unless, as I was, you convince them you are suicidal enough to need to hit the psych ward.

            As a person who’s needed that sort of help through my help, I’ll agree part of the reason for not seeking services is the stigma. “Pulling out of it” or “working through it” is a huge part of my local culture. But it is also hard to get the services. Every time I’ve had health insurance, there’s no limits on how many times I can see my GP, but there’s always a limit on mental health care. Without health insurance… might as well as forget it.

    • The problem is that he wasn’t ignored. He frequented a message board that was an echo chamber for his hate. But since Chuck didn’t say “all men are bad” you pretty much lost any credibility by saying that he did.

  12. I assume I’ve been linked to by some disagreeable folks, as I’m seeing a sudden influx of toxic trollery, and so this remains a good time to reassert my comment policy here:

    If I think you’re being a shitbird — a definition which is purely subjective and up to the whims of me, your callous imperator here at ye olde blog — then I will dump you into the Spam Oubliette where you can slap your greasy palms against the pink-meat gelatin-slick walls and scream until you’re hoarse.

    *waggles fingers*

    — c.

    • Ah, I knew there had to be a secret behind why, despite my general policy to avoid the comments like the plague in an article like this, I not only started reading the comments, but actually scrolled to a second page of the comments. Thank you for being an assiduous shit-bird antagonizer. The image of your Spam Oubliette will haunt me for days to come.

  13. My mother was a feminist and I suppose, thinking of the actual definition of the word, that I am too.
    The reason I say it like that is because to grow up saying that one is a feminist means to be constantly followed by scoffing and criticism and a stick-to-you-like-glue label: and I have still yet to finish growing up. One of the issues that I faced, and, I suppose, still face, is people overlooking any comment I make regarding how people treat a woman/women. Unfortunately, we still live in a society where men and boys are taken more seriously than women and girls. The whole point of myself writing this is that I would like to thank you, Chuck Wendig, for speaking for those of us who won’t always be heard, for being willing to use your privilege to try to tear that same privilege away. I don’t know if many people would actually be so willing to give up that advantage (but perhaps I am too pessimistic).
    So, thank you.

    – C

  14. Was discussing this with my partner earlier and she, rightfully, pointed out that if this was a working class black man who had done this then the conversation in the media would be less about his mental health than the “misogyny and violence of black/gang culture”. But seeing as it was an upper class white boy it focusses on him being a ‘lone crazed gunman’ type with little, if any, conversation of the sense of entitlement of upper class men.

  15. I wasn’t paying attention to this news. Now I kinda wish I still wasn’t.

    That video, the very knowledge that people like him exist, that whole organizations filled with people like him or at least similar in philosophy, scares the living daylights out of me.

    I couldn’t even watch the whole video. Nope.

    The most fucked up part was I thought he was kinda cute, physically. I mean, out of this horrible, tragic, disgusting, horrific event, one lesson can be learned that NO ITS NOT THE EXTERNAL EVENTS OF YOUR LIFE THAT’S CREATING YOUR REALITY YOU MORON, ITS YOU AND YOUR FUCKED UP MIND!


    Why is it that everyone wants to turn their eyes away from the misogyny of this? I understand that we do need to talk about mental health too, and that’s DEFINITELY a factor here. But…LOOK AT THE GODDAMN VIDEO!! How can people NOT GET WHYYYY there VERY MUCH ALSO VERY MUCH SO YES MUCHO reason to have a conversation about misogyny as well?! Seriously? We’re to ignore what he says? Reaally? It’s not like he’s saying “God made me do it” Or the voices in my head. Or Aliens.

    In a world where men, SANE men rape, torture and kill women because they believe they deserve it just by being women, are you really fucking kidding me?

    That’s all I wanted to say. I know this is a poor comment. But…

    I’m just really appalled and scared and…

    *throws up hands, walks out*

    • The most fucked up part was I thought he was kinda cute, physically. I mean, out of this horrible, tragic, disgusting, horrific event, one lesson can be learned that NO ITS NOT THE EXTERNAL EVENTS OF YOUR LIFE THAT’S CREATING YOUR REALITY YOU MORON, ITS YOU AND YOUR FUCKED UP MIND!

      Exactly! I mean, given that he was physically traditionally attractive, the son of an assistant director on extremely well known movies, got to go to movie premiers with celebrities, and was rich, how obvious did his seething hatred of women have to be that not one young woman was willing to have sex with him?

      Having once been a teenaged girl I can confidently say plenty of them have terrible judgement – I spent ages 15 to 20 dating a guy who in hindsight never actually liked *me*, he just liked who he thought he could mold me into (and tore me down every chance he got while he was at it). If I dated that guy for five years, how awful did this asshole have to be to scare off every single woman around him?

  16. Important words Chuck. Thank you. I presented at the same TEDx that Caroline Heldman (Miss Representation) gave her “Sexy Lie” talk on objectification that since went viral. I was so moved/embarrassed by her talk that I vowed to speak up when I heard or saw sexism from my fellow males. I’m a singer/songwriter by trade and I think you’d appreciate my latest effort, “Boss Señorita.” It’s a feminist anthem in a easily palatable form – badass blues.
    Much respect and gratitude.

    PS: Here is Caroline’s TEDx talk if you haven’t seen it. Incredible.

  17. I agree with the statement, “The term ‘men’s rights’ is roughly analogous to the phrase ‘white power,’ and equally creepy.” But that statement is incomplete, because it fails to address the fact that to someone who does not care about skin color the phrase ‘black power’ is essentially equivalent to the white variety (not any better, more acceptable or less creepy), and is itself roughly analogous to the term ‘women’s rights’.

    It seems to me that as long as the majority of people support social institutions (and ideologies) that address people in terms of their gender (or color, age, birthplace, etc.) and condone the underlying assertion that it is somehow righteous and just to treat individuals differently based upon certain personal traits in certain situations where those traits do not actually have any direct, pragmatic relevance those people who want to justify their abusive actions under the guise of ‘men’s rights’ or similar concepts will always have an excuse to do so.

    That is why I hope that instead of continuing to fight over the alleged rights or parochial concerns of certain specific groups of people (and in doing so validating the kind of psychological discrimination that leads to much of the oppression that they oppose) people will instead turn their attention and collective might to the task of creating a social institution that treats all people only as people, with equal freedom and protection for all.

  18. I don’t know what to say. I like you? I admire you? For telling the truth? For being decent? For making the world better because of how you will raise your son? Pick all of the above-

  19. Blame god not me because you where born a woman.And you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar you fucking bitch.

  20. Your words are hateful and your point is completely one sided that was one obviously sick youth not a representation of society and how women are treated. in reality when a women is mistreated society is very quick to come to her aid as opposed to what men have to do if mistreated by a women

    • Which is funny, since you’re here denying something that women from every country and walk of life confirm is a thing and you’re the same guy as the anon above calling Chuck and bitch and using woman as an insult.

  21. Thank you, the sub-culture of hate against women because of some sense of ‘entitlement’ regardless of what women want is terrifying. I didn’t realise it had gone this far down the rabbit hole. We seem to be going backwards, yet we can all contribute; women in the raising of children, men in calling out other men, and not tolerating the increased sexualisation of our societies by not buying misogynistic music and telling brands/companies that using women as sex objects or demeaning men to sell something is not ok. We’ve lost our way and I feel very sad right now at what I’ve just read on the places Elliot visited.

    I look forward to reading more of your blog, you may have lost 10 but in me you’ve gained 1.

  22. As a function of my day job (ah, to reach the success threshold of not needing one of those anymore), I show apartments, townhouses, what have you to those in need of rentals. I am forced daily to grapple with the teeter-totter ride that is caution vs. paranoia in showing properties and the safety therein. Each time I show a vacant property, a tiny, paranoid (but not really, right?) voice in the back of my mind needles me with caution–hope this guy’s not crazy!–make sure HE goes down the basement stairs first!–don’t get blocked into a room!—etc.

    Anywho, thank you for this. You make the world a better place.

  23. Thank you for this. Thank you. Thank you. Unfortunately, I live the lie every day, that I owe someone for being a woman, that I have a duty and an obligation to do things or I won’t be loved. When I try to chat or talk about other stuff, the conversation quickly turns to some sexual innuendo and inevitably either sex, or an argument about why were not having it yet. I know this sounds crazy, and it is. I live this way because here, I think that I am safe. Here, I know the only thing that even comes close to love that I’ve ever known. When I heard just a small portion of that video, it made my skin crawl and it scared me to death. I’ve heard so much of that kind of self entitlement, disrespect and sometimes outright hatred over sex or my lack of providing enough or good enough quality of it. What has happened in this world?
    Growing up I wasn’t part of the in crowd, in fact i was kind of an outcast, but sure enough, late at night in the dark even the coolest jock or hottest rockstar dude would take a turn with me when no one was looking, and then ignore me and even laugh about it in days after. On the rare occasion that I tried to say no, I would get cussed out and called a snob and a bitch on top of all the other things they called me. It was easier to just give in, at least then I had a pretend few minutes of acceptance and tolerance for my existence. I learned to live a certain way, the lesser of the two types of pain, I guess.
    Gun control? How on earth would that help? This guy was going to kill, whatever it took. I’m sure if guns were even completely banned, this guy would have connected with whomever he had to in order to obtain them illegally. We all know this. If not, who knows what other kind of weapon he would have found or even created, considering he planned this for a year.
    Yes, I believe that he was mentally ill, but society has fed him the fuel for his rampage by telling him that women are supposed to want him and women are supposed to be hot and sexy and alluring and ready for action at all times. If they’re not, then they are breaking “the rules” and need to be punished.
    Thank you for this, and thank you for being one of the good guys.

  24. I, for one, would like to lend my support. I don’t date often (matter of personal preference), but when I have I’ve never expected anything. I hope to have a fun time enjoying the other’s company, that’s it. If there are subsequent dates, that’s great, but I’ve never felt entitled towards anything. For the record, I’ve never had a girlfriend, and I’m 29. I still don’t understand the thought processes that lead up to misogyny or, worse, murdering because he felt he was owed sex/love. I look forward to a time when the deplorable inherent sexism anywhere it’s present is eradicated. I hope I will live to see some modicum of this; I fear not.

  25. Yes, there is sexism against women. But there is also sexism against men too. Chalking up men’s issues to “something about prostate cancer and divorce”, ignoring them is not the way to go about things. It is completely fallacious to say “yeah there’s some issues of this group but they don’t matter because these people have it worse”. It’s like saying, “well I’m sorry your mother only feeds you dry rice, but kids in Africa don’t even have food”.

    I don’t deny that men have privilege. But women do also. Women have the privilege of getting, on average, 40% less jail time than men. Women have the privilege of getting more custody rights. Female genital mutilation is seen as abhorrent, but circumcision is a cultural norm.

    Just because as a woman I am told more about the dangers of rape, doesn’t mean that men aren’t just as likely to get raped. And if I do get touched inappropriately, I won’t be called “gay” for not wanting my crotch touched. And “talk to your sons about consent”. Why not talk to daughters and sons? As if only men need to be educated about consent.

    In short, both men and women have issues, but to focus on one genders and trivialize the other’s issues is not a way to bring about equality.

    • “there is also sexism against men too.”

      Welcome to the kyriarchy, mate. If you knew anything about feminism, you’d realise that the very issues you talk about, are all part and parcel of the same problem – focussing on hypermasculinity as an ideal and forcing women into predefined roles (such as homemakers) because it suits the system better. Women may get less jail time but they are disproportionately arrested, charged and jailed over things that aren’t even crimes – like being the victim of domestic violence, having a child die while breastfeeding, or suffering a miscarriage. You bitch about child custody, when women aren’t even allowed to be custodians of their own bodies.

      But I bet you don’t give a toss about that. You just want to whine about the menz not being given all the attention for a change.

      “doesn’t mean that men aren’t just as likely to get raped”

      Yeah? Catching a bus? Walking home? A straight man is just as likely to be raped? Give me a fucking break.

      “As if only men need to be educated about consent.”

      You won’t find a single feminist arguing that.

      “to focus on one genders and trivialize the other’s issues is not a way to bring about equality.”

      So you want us to ignore something directly affecting women and focus on your complaints instead. Because we all know that what affects men is universal and the most important issue of any given day.

      You want to talk about men’s issues? You want concrete evidence of how sexism hurts everyone? How about the fact that in his misogynistic rage, Rodger managed to killed twice as many men as women. His outsized entitlement fed by rape culture and the belief that men ‘deserve’ sex, cost four men their lives, not just two young women.

      Misogyny kills. That’s why we need to deal with it.

      • I’m pretty shocked that anyone would say a man is as likely to get raped as a woman. What???? Yes there are instances of men being raped, but really it’s women who are being raped, date raped, groped, etc. for the most part. There are lots of victims for lots of things in the world, but the fact remains that women are victims in big and small ways ALL THE TIME. Men just can’t understand it because they do not live it. And if you are a pretty girl you will be harassed on a regular basis wherever you go. Men will think it’s perfectly acceptable to comment on your looks, your clothes, your body parts… strangers in the coffee line, the grocery store. Men will feel that it’s fine to follow you around the store or follow you to your car, even if it’s just to get your number. They feel that it’s fine to look you up and down like a piece of meat as if that’s a compliment. Not ALL men but enough men do that stuff to make our lives difficult on a daily basis. And that sucks. There are very few instances where a guy is date raped. Come on!!!! Women are STILL treated like a butt and boobs, and something to put clothing on. Hillary Clinton was so accomplished when she became first lady, but what did they talk about? Her hair and her clothing!!! I could go on but I’m just getting angry.

        Young girls STILL dumb themselves down in school to get attention from boys and they think they have to have sex with boys to be liked and popular. It’s sick and twisted and in many ways getting worse for girls not better.

      • “His outsized entitlement”

        And I quote: “And there are never women with this sense of entitlement, right? There’s never been a jealous ex wife or girlfriend that can’t let go. There’s never been a crazy stalker chick. There’s never been a girl who continuously makes unwelcome advances.”

        “So you want us to ignore something directly affecting women and focus on your complaints instead. Because we all know that what affects men is universal and the most important issue of any given day.”

        What I’m saying is that whether he hated women or not, he was still insane. That was what caused him to kill all these people. I know people who hate, absolutely loath immigrants. I had a teacher who said he wanted to kill all Mexicans with a shotgun when they came over the border. Yet he has never killed anyone. While he may still be a bigot, he is sane enough to know that killing = bad. This man was obviously disturbed.

        I don’t want to focus on my complaints, I wanted to point out what the author of the article was doing. Focusing on his complaints about women, and pushing aside things that directly affect men. Because we all know that what affects women is universal and the most important issue of any given day.

        And this shouldn’t be seeing “focusing on complaints about men”. All sexism is sexism. These are human issues. To segregate them only helps to segregate humans more, not less.

        “Yeah? Catching a bus? Walking home? A straight man is just as likely to be raped? Give me a fucking break.”

        Even if I was wrong (since all statistics I’ve searched so far are from Women’s Studies, and biased sources), rape of men is still deemed not as much of a problem. Men are told to “suck it up” and are told that they should want to be touched by a woman. What about in prison? How many men are raped in prison? Maybe rape doesn’t happen in the same places, but it sure as hell still happens. Not to mention that men are a lot more afraid to report rape for fear of being deemed not masculine enough. And about the kriarchy. Wouldn’t patriarchs simply push the idea that rape against men is bad, but it isn’t against women? How come there aren’t battered men’s shelters, when men are 41% of domestic violence victims?

        • Okay. I’ve seen this alot, the last part of your comment, and I wanted to say something.

          I feel like the biggest differences between men and women in society, is that Men get to be angry and assertive and complain in general. Women do not. When they do, men go and tell them that they have it hard too and they should treat them equally.

          But my reaction to the last part of your comment is this…

          I’ll use medical terms metaphorically.

          It’s like this. Where would you put your MAIN attention on solving: Cancer or The Plague.

          Both are bad and horrible. But you can agree one is greater in its horror and thus should have a bit more attention — at least until it’s controlled or changed — and then put more attention on the other. It’s not saying we should ignore the cancer. It’s not saying “suck it up” with the cancer. But we’re saying, The Plague has been going on for hundreds of years, with millions of deaths and needs to be controlled NOW.

          Why don’t men have the same support systems as women do? Because, though I won’t argue they are not suffering to some degree of those things you mentioned…women are suffering of those things and worse things at a much higher degree. THATS why the support systems are there. ONCE and ONLY ONCE women feel safer, are attacked less, are empowered more, etc etc, ON A GLOBAL LEVEL and don’t need the support, then naturally, the men’s needs for those things will arise.


          So. Shhhh. We know. We know there’s cancer out there. And we’re sorry and it’s horrible. We’ll do what we can for you guys. But we got a plague going on right now and we’re gonna deal with that first, okay?

        • No one ever said there wasn’t, and when a woman goes on a killing spree, we’ll talk about it. And while being disturbed was the thing that pushed him into violence (although men who are not disturbed rape and abuse women all the time), the focus of his violence was his hatred of women. And that’s a problem, just like it would have been a problem if the focus of his violence was a hatred of Chinese people (which, based on some of his ravings, it could just as easily have been). He fixated on a thing and his fixation was fed by other people who were fixated on the same thing, it just happened that he had it inside him to actually carry out the violence the others just talked about.

          And since this was about women, I fail to see what men have to do with it.

          And no, patriarchs wouldn’t push that. The idea is that the feminine is bad and sex is proscriptive. Men give and women take, if a man is raped then he becomes the taker and thus the feminine. This is also the root of homophobia. And there should be domestic violence shelters for men, feminists (contrary to what seems to be popular opinion) are not fighting that. It’s not feminists that cause cops not to take domestic violence against men seriously. They barely take it seriously against women.

    • I could say a lot of things here, but comparing female genital mutilation to male circumcision jumped out. We can go back and forth about whether or not male circumcision has medical or health benefits (I’ve read papers and studies that go both ways). I personally believe it’s something that should be left until a man is old enough to make the decision for himself, and I think this attitude is catching on. However, male circumcision only removes the prepuce, where female mutilation removes the prepuce, labia and clitoris (and in some cases, the wound is sewn so that the woman is unable to have sex at all until she is “opened” later). This is the equivalent of cutting the head of a man’s penis off and somehow rigging him up so he can still manage manage to “service” his wife without deriving any pleasure from the act himself.

      And yes, men do get raped–often in prison or war zones, and mostly by other men, incidentally, but sometimes by women. But men are not the gender who spend their lives looking over their shoulders when they’re walking home from the bus stop, wondering whether they should rent that first floor apartment, making sure their first few dates with a new person take place in well-lit, well-traveled places, wondering whether they should invite the person they just met up for coffee, wondering whether they should hop in the car and do those errands after dark. And I suspect most men don’t experience the same apprehension when they’re alone in a subway car and a passenger of the opposite sex gets in and sits near them.

      No one ever said that life was perfect for anyone, but women put up with a lot more shit just because of their gender than men do.

      • “However, male circumcision only removes the prepuce,”

        The point I’m arguing is not which is worse, but which is seen as worse. Why is it seen as okay to mutilate a boy, but not mutilate a girl? It’s like if boy’s pinkies were chopped off and that was seen as okay, but a girl’s pinkies and thumbs being chopped off was seen as bad.

        “But men are not the gender who spend their lives looking over their shoulders”

        I remember an conversation with my aunt. She was saying, “feminism is trying to protect you,” and I said, “I don’t need protection”. She said, “you’re a woman, you need protection.” It’s the idea that as a woman, I need to be protective that makes me apprehensive. Honestly, I’m not worried, because I can trust in myself for safety. But when people come along and tell me that I am oppressed, that’s when I feel oppressed. When people tell me I need to be empowered, that’s when my power is taken away from me.

        • But where did your aunt get the idea that if you’re a woman, you need protection? Where does it come from?

          I actually agree with this comment big time. I actually stay away from extreme feminist blogs and posts because some of it is very…victim thinking. “We’re the victims. They’re the predators”. And this mentality does breed fear where fear isn’t necessarily needed. I’m hardly afraid when I am on my own nor when I get on a bus or whatever. Though the stories you hear online, it can be influencing. And it definitely doesn’t solve anything, just breeds negativity which hurts everyone.

          However, the origin of all this comes from the past. It piles up, leaves its influence.

          Who were forced to be married when they were only preteens and not have a say in their husbands on a greater scale? What gender had to wear corsets that mutilated their bodies and was convinced it was a good thing? Who had their feet bound because it looked cute that way? Who were murdered or abandoned just for being born?

          It’s in the history. It’s still with us. Mentally. And it doesn’t matter if it happened to one nation and not another, yesterday or thousands of years ago. It effects the whole world, present and future.

          The idea isn’t that its not bad when it happens to men, and bad that it happens to women.

          It’s not one and not the others. Both are bad.

          I guess the problem lies in the fact that alot of this stuff is caused by one gender to another gender, and thus creates this conflict. This” us vs them”. And it’s easier to word it that way. But that’s not it, and you’re right about that.

          (by the way, sorry about my earlier post. I’d edit the heck out of it or delete it if I could, but I can’t. I think it was a bit of a knee jerk reaction and not really well worded, but there you have it. I apologize.)

        • “The point I’m arguing is not which is worse, but which is seen as worse. Why is it seen as okay to mutilate a boy, but not mutilate a girl? It’s like if boy’s pinkies were chopped off and that was seen as okay, but a girl’s pinkies and thumbs being chopped off was seen as bad.”

          either you are wilfully ignorant of what FGM involves or you are arguing in bad faith. I am 100% against male circumcision except in the case of undisputed medical need. But to pretend that male circumcision to FGM is remotely equivalent is breathtakingly dishonest.

          In the vast majority of cases, male circumcision leads to no permanent health problems or disfigurement. Deaths are extremely rare. In FGM (from Wikipedia)

          “Immediate complications include fatal bleeding, acute urinary retention, urinary infection, wound infection, septicemia, tetanus and transmission of hepatitis or HIV if instruments are non-sterile or reused.[11] It is not known how many girls and women die from the procedure; few records are kept, complications may not be recognized, and fatalities are rarely reported.[64]

          Late complications vary depending on the type of FGM performed.[11] The formation of scars and keloids can lead to strictures, obstruction or fistula formation of the urinary and genital tracts. Urinary tract sequelae include damage to urethra and bladder with infections and incontinence. Genital tract sequelae include vaginal and pelvic infections, painful periods, pain during sexual intercourse and infertility. [65] Complete obstruction of the vagina results in hematocolpos and hematometra.[11] Other complications include epidermoid cysts that may become infected, neuroma formation, typically involving nerves that supplied the clitoris, and pelvic pain.[66]

          FGM may complicate pregnancy and place women at higher risk for obstetrical problems, which are more common with the more extensive FGM procedures.[11] Thus, in women with Type III who have developed vesicovaginal or rectovaginal fistulae – holes that allow urine and faeces to seep into the vagina – it is difficult to obtain clear urine samples as part of prenatal care, making the diagnosis of conditions such as preeclampsia harder.[65] Cervical evaluation during labour may be impeded and labour prolonged. Third-degree laceration, anal sphincter damage and emergency caesarean section are more common in women who have experienced FGM.[11] Neonatal mortality is also increased. The WHO estimated that an additional 10–20 babies die per 1,000 deliveries as a result of FGM; the estimate was based on a 2006 study conducted on 28,393 women attending delivery wards at 28 obstetric centers in Burkina Faso, Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria, Senegal and Sudan. In those settings all types of FGM were found to pose an increased risk of death to the baby: 15 percent higher for Type I, 32 percent for Type II and 55 percent for Type III.[67]”

          So if you are comparing one barely useful procedure with an entirely unnecessary one, then FGM is undoubtfully the most dangerous, by a very long margin.

          So yes, stopping FGM is more urgent, because more people die as a result. Is that clear enough?

          And this is why women concentrate on things like rape culture, malignant misogyny, on restrictive medical laws and practices – not because they’re not nice or a little inconvenient to live with, but because we’re dying in large numbers as a result. Thousands of women are dying at the hands of male partners and attackers and male dominated armies every year, and many more are raped, mutilated or denied even a modicum of choice about their lives. This has to stop.

          Yes, men suffer too. But they’ve been in charge for a bloody long time. How about they fix their own problems on their own dime, and grant women the right a voice to speak about the issues affecting *us*.

          You speak and act as if men are powerless, as if they don’t dominate every sector of government in every country on earth, as if they don’t make the laws, run the armies, dominate health professions and police forces. You speak as if the very mention of women’s suffering is so disempowering for these poor, oppressed males, that we must be silent (again) lest the most powerful gender suffers the slightest momentary inconvenience from having to listen. Bollocks to that.

        • They’re not the same. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. It’s hard for me to think the removal of foreskin (under controlled and sterile conditions, usually by a doctor), is even in the same time zone as the removal of the entire clitoris (in unsanitary conditions, often by someone with no medical training, with no anesthetic, while the girl is struggling and with no after care) and sometimes the entire inner labia as well. In come cultures the entire vulva is sewn shut with a little hole left for urine and menses. It would be like if we took pubescent boys and dragged them to a shed and cut their penises off with a pair of safety scissors while they were fully conscious and being held down by their father and uncles.

        • In other words, it’s important for you deny that sexism harms women any more than men, because to believe otherwise makes you feel less powerful.

          That’s kind of messed up.

    • Nobody is saying to ignore issues surrounding men. My father died of prostate cancer. I would like prostate cancer to get more attention than it does. But I don’t need to associate myself with toxic MRA nonsense to accomplish that aim.

      Female genital mutilation, as another commenter has noted, is wildly different from circumcision both in method and in the culture around it.

      Nobody is trivializing men. The opposite, in fact — by suggesting men have privilege, it proves men are far from trivial. But in this situation, men have very much been trivializing women, and that’s a mighty big no-no.

      — c.

    • Here’s the problem with your rationale, the reason for the female “privilege” you MRAs like to talk about isn’t because of Feminism. It’s because of the decisions of men. Women get 40% less jail time because men didn’t (and don’t) think women could handle more. (Although women getting life in prison when their drug dealing significant others take a deal to testify against them and let the women go down while they go free is a thing, so) Women more common get custody of children in divorce cases because, by and large, men don’t want it. Female Genital Mutilation is nothing like Circumcision. It’s actually more like castration, comparing the two is completely disingenuous. Daughters get talked to about consent all the time. Daughters are also taught how to use their car keys as a weapon. To carry mace. To carry a whistle on their keychain. To walk in packs. How to walk to their car in a dark parking lot. But if someone suggests we talk to our sons about consent, MRAs lose their minds and start the “not all men” thing. And, since one of the things that Feminism is fighting against is the devaluation of the feminine or the use of “woman” as an insult, which includes things like being ridiculed if you are a man who is raped or molested, we’re already there. Much of what feminism is fighting screws over men too.

      My question is: what are YOU doing besides demanding that feminists do it for you? Are you advocating for raped and molested men and boys? Are you advocating for shelters for men suffering from domestic violence? Are you fighting for the rights of gay men (who are, by the way, usually the ones who are the victims of rape and domestic violence) or are only straight men worthy of your concern? If you want to advocate for men, then do it, but learn more about what feminism is actually about. You might find there’s more common ground than you’d like to admit.

  26. Thanks for saying this. It’s one of those things that many men still don’t believe unless another man says it 🙁

    • “It’s one of those things that many men still don’t believe unless another man says it :(”

      Which is the problem. Mr Wendig could have chosen to highlight some of the really strong, passionate responses to this event and others by intelligent, well spoken women, and I wish he had used his platform to do that. He’s not saying anything remotely original or unusual, but being a man saying it gets him mostly cookies and effusive thanks.

      Women saying the same thing get rape and death threats, constant hounding, and being outed.

      Instead of thanking a man for being, you know, not a douche, how about men step up and say, “Hey, you should read that thing by X woman because she taught me a lot”?

      Certainly would help women not be silenced as much. The PUAs will still write people like Mr Wendig off as a mangina, but there’s a better chance that the people affected most by misogyny will have a chance to speak to those most able to effect change, in their own words and from their own experiences, instead of being filtered through a male voice. Again.

      Frankly, I’m tired of men being applauded for occasionally saying something that women say all the time. And say *better*, actually.

      [adds obligatory comment about yes, grateful for male support blah blah, because I don’t want to come off as a *bitch* or anything]

        • “I did link to the #YesAllWomen Twitter feed”

          Which is also full of MRAs and sexists hijacking the topic, and hundreds of triggering images and hate posts. You posted a concise summary of the issues, which is what people are looking for in a terrible situation like this – not literally hundreds of thousands of tweets, half of which are spam, abuse and misdirection.

          All I’m saying is that you could link to some of the blog posts written by women which do what you set out to do. If your readers want to talk to women about the issues that effect them, then a primary source is always best.

          Your choice of course.

  27. Thanks for this, Mr. Wendig. Thanks for standing up to be counted among the men who get it.

    When I get into this issue with guys who don’t believe misogyny is still a force to be reckoned with in EVERY female’s life, who believe that equal rights between the sexes is more or less a fait accompli in the West, there’s one point for which they never have a comeback: so long as females must fear for their physical safety merely on account of being female, there is no equality between the sexes. So long as we females must live with the reality that rape and battery are very real possibilities for each of us every day, regardless of who we are, what we do for a living, where we live or how much we have achieved in life, we will always be second class citizens.

    In his last standup special Louis CK talked about how men are the #1 cause of suffering and death among women, how when a woman gets into a man’s car for a first date and asks, “Where are we going?”, an accurate response from the man could be, “To your death, statistically speaking.” This joke is funny because it rings true; and how sad is that?

  28. I find it to be pretty pathetic that anyone would sympathize with such a disgusting murder and his obvious sexism and misogyny.

    Men who are clinging to the ‘mental illness’ crap…are you proud of yourselves? Are you happy that you’d rather blame disease than another man?

    Are you that afraid of women that you can’t say ‘You know what, I’m not gonna be a dudebro this time. This type of guy is really bad for our nation.’ ?

    I will be the one to say it. Heterosexual males have been THE most destructive form of human being in all time. When are you going to admit that boys need to be taught to quit whining about not getting laid and focus on real life? Can this ever happen or are you just all clinging to your ‘innocence’ as ‘good’ guys.

    True Good wouldn’t stand for this and would be proud to educate their fellow males. Your years of destruction need to end and I know there’s plenty of good stil out there.

      • I get why you’re doing this. You think that by being an enormous suck up to dangerous men, you can protect yourself from the worst effects of their misogyny.

        But you know, men who kill and rape and batter and abuse don’t stop to ask whether a woman has gone onto forums and acted like a quisling. No, you’ll be blown away just the same as the feminists. Why? Because you’re female. That’s all that matters to them. You’re the same piece of property that they want to control as the rest of us.

        As for the undoubted fact that men kill more people than women do and have done over history, why don’t you post some opposing data?

        You’re entitled to your own opinion, but you can’t have your own truth.

      • “Heterosexual males” have done a lot of damage. The MOST destructive form of human being in all time? No. But they have done damage. MORE damage than women. Yes, women have done damage. But not to the same scale. You know that.

        It’s an exaggeration. It’s definitely not a healthy point of view.

        But you cannot equal it to the same sexism that women have faced since forever. That’s the point. It’s not the same. And by trying to say its the same, it distracts from any sort of progress towards improvement in this area for BOTH genders. It sort of remains neutral.

        “Well, if men are suffering too. I guess its okay then! We should all go home and talk about something else.” See?

  29. Attention all stations…Stand by for Flash Traffic…Authentication Code…LISTEN UP KNUCKLEHEADS!

    Chuck has, as usual, done an outstanding job of encouraging a dialogue on a very painful and heart-rending topic that is very personal for far too many families. Some have vilified him for it. Not unexpected. People do that. But if we don’t face our evils, and turn away from them in the solace of ignorance, apathy, or animosity towards those with opposing views, EVIL ADVANCES.

    That’s what evil does. It lurks in all human hearts, whether we have the humility to admit it or not. The only truly effective weapon in our arsenal to vanquish evil, ironically, lies also within our hearts. Please don’t ascribe any religious significance to that observation; it’s simply a stone fact.

    Anyone with any military training knows you might be able to defend your castle from behind it’s walls, but you can’t win the war unless you step out from behind the safety of your fort and ENGAGE THE ENEMY. That involves risk. In order to win the war of ideas, we must be willing to embrace the possibility that our own particular view, in part or in whole, might be WRONG.

    There; I said it. Deal with it.

    If it matters, I’ve been trained as a combat soldier, and spent three decades in a municipal/metropolitan police department where I’ve had the experience of dealing with the issue of violence directed at women from every angle imaginable.

    I don’t have the answers. But calling out somebody else because they disagree with you or refusing to listen to their opinion isn’t part of the solution. As a drill sergeant taught me lifetime ago, “If you ain’t part of the solution, Yardbird, you’re part of the problem.”

    Don’t be part of the problem. And don’t shoot the messenger. In Wendig’s case, it’s not only bad form, it could be unhealthy. Have you read that guy’s stuff? He just might shoot back…


    …End Transmission…Return Standard Traffic.

  30. Thank you Chuck for understanding. I’ve actually found it heartening that many men did read the hashtag because they wanted to understand and support women.

    We know it’s not all men but that doesn’t protect us from the far too many men who do commit violence against women and do refuse to take no for an answer. I’m a creep magnet–in spite of the fact I never wear make up or high heels or sexy clothes and I couldn’t flirt my way out of a wet paper bag. In fact, I’m very wary and standoffish and avoid interacting with men, because even a bit of polite small talk about the weather while waiting for the elevator makes some of them think I want to sleep with them. Nonetheless I literally cannot go to the park and read a book without picking up a stalker. I know there are good men out there but I’ve had too many bad experiences with bad men to try and find the good ones amid the bad ones.

    One of the tragedies about violence against women is that we end up being afraid of all men, even though not all men are violent against women, even though some men protect women at great risk to themselves. The problem is, it’s not easy for us to know which men are which. So we end up having to be defensive against all men. I can’t tell you the number of times a man has reacted angrily or violently when I politely turned down his advances, to the point where I’m very anxious when any man approaches me. If you’re a nice guy, then don’t take it personally if a woman reacts warily–she’s not reacting to you, she’s reacting to all the bad guys who wouldn’t take no for an answer who came before you.

    • I am a creep magnet too and I do not know why. I can be minding my own business and totally ignoring everyone and the weird guy will approach me. I have no clue why. I wish I knew how to give off a better leave me alone vibe. In the checkout line yesterday creepy weird guy making comments to me out of the blue. It gets old.

      • Look at your thoughts and beliefs about men or the world. People create, attract and are attracted to and basically create their realities by what they focus on.

        And we have the tendency to focus our attention on what scares us or created trauma for us in the past.

        The key is to become aware of our thinking and to release our trauma.

        That’s the answer I’ve come up with and had great results with working on these things.

          • No.I didn’t say that. It’s more like saying “I REALLY don’t want that.” And this applies to everything. Poverty. Sickness. Etc. Your subconscious only sees the “that” of the equation and begins to create it or point it out to you.

            Instead (and yes this is easier said than done but still possible with practice), focus on “I really want that” with “that” being wealth, good health, and yes, the good men that are out there.

          • If positive thinking magically makes the creeps disappear, then yes, you are saying it’s her responsibility to make them go away with magic thoughts. Ew.

          • The creeps don’t disappear. They will always be there. The whole idea is not to MAGICALLY make them disappear, it’s to use what we’re already using to create our lives and do so consciously rather than unconsciously, forged by our environment and past experiences. There are MILLIONS of men in the world. There ARE good men out there. Chuck is one of them. You’re telling me it’s just damn luck or “magic” that some people attract good guys and some people just attract creeps?

            The one above said she was a creep magnet and didn’t know why. I’m explaining why.

            This isn’t magic. This is actually how things work.

            And yes, it is her responsibility. It’s her life. My life is my responsibility and so is yours.

            That kid’s life was his responsibility, but instead of owning it, he blamed others for his circumstances and you know what happened.

            It’s either take responsibility or just complain and be unhappy, and possibly make others very unhappy too. The choice is yours.

            I’m not saying “fault” or “cast blame”. But more like…It’s up to YOU to change your life. You cannot change the world, but you can change your own personal experience of it.

            I’m not just talking out of my ass. This is the solution. It was mine, and I’m a million times happier than I was as a teenager. I thought perhaps it would help others to share. *shrug* I definitely know I’m not alone.

            But anyways, if you want to continue to be a victim and blame the creeps, and society, and continue to create the same results, and stay that way as you try to change the whole wide world that’s filled of millions of peoples with their own desires that are probably in conflict with yours and thus making that task HIGHLY DIFFICULT if not impossible especially alone, fine. You’re free to do so.

            Just know you’re gonna be unhappy and continue to experience the same experiences over and over again.

  31. I worked at a con this weekend, and I saw two instances where as staff, *I* did not have to step in, because a male bystander beat me to the punch. A few years ago, I don’t think that would have happened. On the other hand, this has been a huge topic of discussion in fandom for a while now, so I’m thinking more male fans are becoming aware of the issue. Not enough, but maybe more than last week. Hopefully, more next week.

  32. I read this guy’s manifesto. It was terrifying, not so much because of his hatred but because he was convinced that he was being reasonable and was being forced into mass murder. Not his fault.

    As far as I can tell, he never actually tried to speak to a woman. He would go for a walk, and come home depressed because no woman approached him. He would go to class, see an attractive woman, and then get angry when she started talking to the guy next to her. After a few days, he quit the class rather than watch them taunt him by ignoring him like that. Although he never tried to speak to a woman (except a couple of times when he was drunk), he felt their ignoring him was proof that they hated him. It was their fault that he was alone, and had robbed him of the sexual experimentation he should have been able to do as a teenager. They cheated him and hated him, and his plan to kill them was a reasonable response, according to what he wrote.

    Chilling. But it also means that a lot of the discussion is beside the point. No woman rejected him; he never gave them the chance. The rejection was all in his head. He had an idea of what of what he was entitled to, and reality didn’t meet his expectations. He goes on at length about how his mother failed him by refusing to marry a rich man; she knew several, had dated several, and he deserved to live in a mansion and live the high life. Her selfishness was depriving him of that life.
    A very creepy and warped view of the world.

    • I read a few pages, too. It was telling that the first few paragraphs note his devastation at having the second (not first) piece of his preschool birthday cake, and that his formative years were shaped by being refused a turn on the Jurassic Park ride due to height restrictions. His sense that the world owed him started early and never let up.

  33. Thank you for this, Chuck.

    Last year I attended a major league baseball game in Phoenix, Arizona. There was a group of men seated behind me. They were drinking–a lot. They spent the entire game commenting on every woman who walked by, and what body part they’d like to insert in which orifice. I’m talking specific, pornographic garbage.

    One of the group leaned forward and apologized for his friends’ behavior. He offered to tell them to pipe down but I thought that might end in more problems than not. Finally, though, I got tired of it. I was tired of men in their 30s or 40s, none of them Apollo or gods among men, or any kind of man I’d want my daughter (or son) to date talking as though they were gods gift to the world. So I finally turned around and told them to shut up. There were kids in the area and NO ONE wanted to hear their opinions about anyone. They at least had the good grace then to apologize, and leave. Made me wish I’d spoken up sooner.

    So, the short of it is that there are still grown men in this world who feel it’s their right to sit and talk about women like the women are there for their own viewing and using pleasure. Some of these women had kids, some were young…what have you. It was absolutely disgusting. So yeah, for you to point out that there are men that feel entitled to a woman’s “company” when they do nothing to be worthy of any decent person’s company…that just seems spot on.

    • The next step for the fellow who leaned forward?

      Asking them to stop without needing to ask first if it’s actually necessary. And doing it even when there’s no one to hear. Maybe his mate’s will get it then. 🙂

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