So, yesterday I wrote a thing about the Hugos and the Sad/Rabid Puppies horseshit, and that got linked around a bit as this blog fortunately sometimes does.
One person linked to it on Facebook, a reader of mine who is a woman, and she tagged me directly, which is all good. And then an exchange happened — well, an “exchange” is a very polite way to refer to this abusive intrusion by some ambulatory pubic fire.
Now, I’m not saying this exchange is an example specifically of the Sad and Rabid Puppies — he seems to be a supporter of it, and I’ve seen this kind of thing before from some of those supporters, nominees, and also from the connected joy-buzzer parade of Gamer.Gate.
What I will say, though, is that this is a pretty good example of what women get online. Women and also persons of color, too — it’s thick with heinous fuckery.
What follows is a part of that exchange. It went on for a while with me and him after this snippet. Nothing productive came out of it, really, and it ended up being not worth the time arguing (though it is worth noting that he was a thousand times more polite to me and tried to excuse his behavior to her because she told him to fuck off — which, by the way, came well after he started with the misogynistic slut-shamey rape-culturey bullshit).
The woman consented to me publishing this snippet, though I’ve removed her name and image (and his, too — regardless of how much as I’d like to run him over the public cheese grater I don’t think that does anybody much good). What follows is, I dunno if it’s triggery, but it sure is shitty.
The red square is the human turd-bucket, though that will become quite clear.
I don’t have much call to action here, really — women already know this stuff goes on, and it’s not like I’m sharing something new. But men are sometimes surprised at this, and so it seems important to highlight once in a while that the Internet can get venomous really fast. While it’s not our job to ride in like SAVIOR MENFOLK to thwart the internet’s many ogres, at the same time, it’s important to be be aware of this stuff and support the good people online. Help make safe spaces here. Moderate the septic shitflingers out of existence. Report abuse. And also ask our social media providers to offer better ways to report and signal abuse online. It’s up to us to curate a better social media feed for everyone, and demand better.
bishopoconnell says:
Well said. It’s beyond description how common this is, and worse that it isn’t a bigger deal.
August 24, 2015 — 1:45 PM
conniejjasperson says:
The world is full of people just dying to be trolls, and the internet is the place to find them. You’re a brave man to be as honest as you are about what you believe, and as a human being I appreciate that.
August 24, 2015 — 1:46 PM
Maggie says:
I had a crazy engage me on Twitter yesterday after I commented with the Hugo Awards hashtag. He threw conspiracies at me and, when I didn’t agree with him, called me a CHORF and “fats”. Using only my Twitter profile pic (which is just a headshot), he told me he loved my “Liz the First forehead” and advised me to lay off the popcorn. Hours later, he tweeted me again, just to make sure he got the last word. Long after my fleeting interest in the “conversation” had waned. Wasn’t nearly as bad as what your friend experienced, but it just goes to show this is SOP for these windbags.
To which I say: Puppies, please. It really is embarrassing to watch you pee all over yourselves. No matter how many times you pull our pigtails or snap our bra straps or call us names, we’re never going to fuck you.
August 24, 2015 — 1:49 PM
Vikki Jankowski says:
Preach sister!
August 24, 2015 — 2:25 PM
June @ How to Philosophize with Cake says:
“While it’s not our job to ride in like SAVIOR MENFOLK to thwart the internet’s many ogres, at the same time, it’s important to be be aware of this stuff and support the good people online.”
This. There’s a fine line between white-knighting and being an ally. Then again, I’ll take a white knight over your typical misogynistic internet asshole any day.
August 24, 2015 — 1:49 PM
Angela says:
For me, the line is does the guy back me up or does he step in a take over? White knights take over and shove me aside like I’m some delicate hothouse flower. Friends add their voices to mine.
August 24, 2015 — 4:25 PM
innerouterawkward says:
This. Well put.
August 24, 2015 — 5:15 PM
Sophie Giroir says:
Try being a woman who enjoys playing first-person shooter games. I can’t tell you how many guys called me some of the most degrading things I’ve ever been called. Even 12 year-old boys joined in, thinking it would make them look cool to the older assholes. I no longer play those games (the fun is sucked right out of it when you are basically a token chick-player and everyone automatically accuses you of cheating if you’re any good.) That, and I don’t like the newer CoD games. Anyway, point is…yes. This is common and the saddest part about it is knowing most of us women have grown thicker skin because of it. Those comments no longer affect us as they used to. Now we simply expect it.
August 24, 2015 — 1:51 PM
paigevest says:
Expect it, yes… that’s the worst part. So when an asshat like this eventually shows up we just think, “Oh, THERE he is.” You sometimes try to use humor/snark to diffuse the situation and then when you get fed up and lash out, you really get attacked. It’s ridiculous.
It gets even better when people tell you to just stop engaging them, etc., etc. I get the whole not feeding the trolls thing, but shouldn’t a woman be allowed to defend herself in her own domain, be it her blog, her Twitter, or her own Facebook page/post? It’s fairly infuriating. =/
August 24, 2015 — 2:34 PM
mariceljimenez says:
I agree. Expecting it is worse. In a way, expecting it means we’re accepting it. And no, we don’t.
August 24, 2015 — 4:13 PM
Kylie says:
I struggle with the idea of not feeding the trolls, because if someone is calling me those sort of names, walking away feels so much like letting them win. It feels like I’m handing over my little piece of the internet, or my right to have an opinion, to some random I’ve likely never met. And I’m so tired of the idea that I have to choose between my safety and my desire to engage in meaningful conversation.
August 24, 2015 — 6:44 PM
Chelle (@chellenator) says:
It doesn’t help that by “not feeding the trolls”, you give them what they want, which is to silence you, punish you, control you, and thereby neutralize your impact on the status quo. On the other hand, if you refuse to shut up, the abuse usually just escalates and escalates until you hit breaking point and, again, give them what they want. It’s a no-win scenario and it’ll continue to be a no-win scenario without major social climate change. That change is inevitable at this point, I think, but change on such a scale is slow enough that it’s not going to help with this particular problem anytime soon.
August 25, 2015 — 5:10 AM
Chelle (@chellenator) says:
(I feel I should qualify this by adding that as much as not shutting up gets you worse treatment, it’s also the engine that DRIVES that eventual, gradual change. So please take care of yourselves but also please don’t shut up.)
August 25, 2015 — 5:22 AM
paigevest says:
THIS!
And I agree that not shutting up is the best course of action… as much as it seems to draw their fire. I don’t hold to the “ignore them and they’ll go away” philosophy. Because they will NOT go away.
September 2, 2015 — 3:10 PM
Book of Kels (@Nezchan) says:
Actually, “Don’t feed the trolls” is TERRIBLE advice for situations like this. It may have applied back in the old USNET days, when what trolls did was post stuff they didn’t believe to get a reaction from other readers. But this is a different animal entirely, where the goal is to make their targets stop talking by any means necessary. The end game is your silence, permanent if possible, and adages like DFtT play into that.
August 25, 2015 — 10:18 AM
Carolyn says:
I often wonder how many women have been turned off from writing epic fantasy and/or science fiction because of this kind of attitude. I sure have been. The one good thing I suppose, in seeing something like the above, is knowing that there ARE people out there who are as appalled as I am and call out that kind of behavior.
August 24, 2015 — 1:52 PM
paigevest says:
My hope is that with examples like these, more people will pop in and stand up to the shitbirds.
August 24, 2015 — 2:35 PM
Carolyn says:
Recent events have definitely made me realize that is exactly what I need to do.
August 24, 2015 — 3:11 PM
Hamnerd says:
I’m a sci-fi writer, and it was suggested to me by a writer friend (a man) that I should publish my first book using my initials rather than my female first name. That made me sick.
August 24, 2015 — 3:53 PM
Book of Kels (@Nezchan) says:
Not like it doesn’t have a long tradition. C.J. Cherryh, J.K. Rowling, C.L. Moore. And of course full-on fake male names like Andre Norton or James Tiptree Jr.
August 25, 2015 — 10:23 AM
Expansionist says:
It does have a long tradition, but the idea that using a male pseudonym or initials is still necessary for your work to attract an audience (and the right kind of attention rather than abuse) *is* sickening. No one should have to hide who they are for their work to be appreciated.
August 26, 2015 — 4:09 PM
Smoph says:
As in Hamnerd’s case, I’ve had this conversation often with female writers, particularly of science fiction. Look up an Aussie sci-fi writer, Patty Jansen. She was told straight out that because she was a woman, they would not be able to sell her hard sci-fi.
August 26, 2015 — 11:11 PM
Shai Hawkins (@justshai) says:
It may be my (terrible) internet connection, but I can’t seem to get the image to load.
August 24, 2015 — 1:54 PM
petewoodworth says:
Your computer is probably screaming OH GOD WHY and weeping instead of loading the image. Give it some time, it’ll settle down.
August 24, 2015 — 3:34 PM
jaimisorrell says:
Chuck, thank you, thank you, thank you for being such a voice of sanity in these things. Plus…being a friendly voice among all the hatred. It’s amazing how quickly these guys lose their marbles when you just make a tiny scratch in the surface. But don’t all fanatics act like that?
I had to unfriend two people recently over the recent Trump-camp-retweet, simply because they just could not comprehend that personal, sexual attacks are NEVER OK. And yet so often men online resort to that line of attack immediately, which of course tells you a lot about what they were thinking right before they said it. I found this article recently that you might have seen, but in case you haven’t…it’s probably one of the best I’ve read to explain the situation between men and women… http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html
August 24, 2015 — 1:56 PM
Trevor Curtis says:
I recognize those comments, and tried to engage same fellow with rational discussion. Hope you got farther than I did
August 24, 2015 — 1:57 PM
Margarita Gakis says:
It really scares me sometimes to be a woman on the internet because I feel like I never know if something I say will set someone off and then I’ll end up with viscious, violent, disgusting remarks directed my way.
August 24, 2015 — 1:58 PM
aileenmiles says:
I was just reading something this morning where someone commented that the comments on any vaguely feminist internet post justify the need for feminism.
August 24, 2015 — 2:00 PM
Beth says:
Sounds right.
August 24, 2015 — 2:18 PM
Book of Kels (@Nezchan) says:
That would be Lewis’ Law, and I see it come true almost every day.
August 25, 2015 — 10:26 AM
todddillard says:
Why do these guys always talk either like monologue-loving villains or 12-year-old FPS trolls? Cognitive dissonance indeed.
August 24, 2015 — 2:01 PM
paigevest says:
Poor social skills?
August 24, 2015 — 2:56 PM
Ivy says:
This made me giggle. Monologue-loving villains. Thanks.
August 24, 2015 — 4:01 PM
TheOwlGirl says:
Hey! I think I just found a new way to make any villain in my stories instantly unlikable: make him a misogynistic internet troll! Darth Vader’s got nothing on Baron Von Dickishness. 😛
August 24, 2015 — 9:42 PM
Book of Kels (@Nezchan) says:
That’s especially true for the Sad/Rabid Puppies. They’re supposed to be writers, but they give themselves such awful dialogue.
August 25, 2015 — 10:27 AM
Robert Sadler says:
Misogyny + Internet Anonymity = One of the worst aspects of humanity.
We all know he wouldn’t have said that stuff to her face, in person. Coward.
And here’s example #4,398,123–Infinity:
Comments on a male’s Facebook picture:
“Looking good, Bruce.”
“Hitting the gym, bro?”
“Love the pic.”
“Awesome picture, as always.”
etc.
Comments on a female’s Facebook picture:
“Daaaaaaaaamn!”
“I’d give my left nut to tap that.”
“Good morning, buttercup.”
“Hey Susie, you looking for a REAL man?”
“I bet you give good head.”
etc.
Makes me ashamed to be a man.
August 24, 2015 — 2:03 PM
terribleminds says:
He wasn’t anonymous, actually. Full name in full view. Most of his account locked down, though I’ll note that he has one public connection, which is with his mother on FB. I was very sorely tempted to send her a screencap of all this to see how his mother feels about the way he talks to women.
August 24, 2015 — 3:03 PM
Hamnerd says:
You should do that, Chuck! I know I would!
August 24, 2015 — 3:39 PM
Robert Sadler says:
You have exceptional self-control.
August 24, 2015 — 3:42 PM
PJ Friel says:
Speaking as a mother, if my son ever talked to/typed at a woman like that, I’d wanna know so I could make sure it NEVER happened again.
August 24, 2015 — 4:12 PM
Indigo Spider says:
Part of me thinks, yeah, you should, might teach him to change his ways! The other (bigger) part thinks, sadly, what kind of household did he grow up in that made him such an angry, bitter misogynist to begin with? Doubt it would make a difference either way.
August 24, 2015 — 4:12 PM
wagnerel says:
Sadly, these guys may have doormat moms who think they can do no wrong and who blame women who are assaulted or abused. Or, on a more sinister note, their mothers may be victims of abuse themselves, and the boys are simply imitating the behavior they’re seeing at home 🙁 They’re learning this behavior somewhere, after all.
August 24, 2015 — 10:12 PM
dpatneaude says:
You’ve removed his image, but I have no trouble inserting a replacement: scowl, cod lips, blondish comb-over resembling old road kill.
August 24, 2015 — 2:03 PM
KVeldman says:
Probably a fedora.
August 24, 2015 — 2:06 PM
Brooklyn Ann says:
Hey, now. Don’t be hating on fedoras… and never on top hats. 😀
August 24, 2015 — 7:42 PM
Book of Kels (@Nezchan) says:
Pfft, most of them wear trilbys instead anyway. But they *think* they’re fedoras!
August 25, 2015 — 10:28 AM
Teresa Reasor says:
Why is it these guys always resort to screaming insults when they’re losing an argument? Makes you wonder if they don’t have such personal insecurities they can’t use their head when someone gets the better of them but resort to this BS. Kind of like Donald Trump huh? Not to be political or anything.
August 24, 2015 — 2:06 PM
writerchick says:
Good on you Chuck for calling this guy out. Although, I have to say that in my experience women can treat other women (sadly) in much the same way. To these kinds of people the Internet is a free pass to insult, degrade and belittle others for what are likely their own shortcomings. I used to try to have intelligent debate on the Internet with folks but have come to realize that debate is too high a bar to set for some people. Their go-to move is always name-calling, insults and evaluations of someone’s character – without knowing a thing about them.
Though I have to say that it surprises me that the social media venues don’t have flags on certain (and obvious) terms so they can flag this sort of behavior. I don’t imagine it would be that difficult. And if they did it, perhaps Internet discourse would be more amicable.
I agree that women are often treated appallingly on the Internet but it is by no means limited to women. Pretty much anyone who dares to have an opinion that some blowhard doesn’t agree with is setting themselves up for attack. Sad, but true.
August 24, 2015 — 2:07 PM
C R Smith says:
This is the best comment in this thread. Women are often but not always the target. If you breathe you are a target for some keyboard asshat somewhere. Women trash women. Men trash men. Religious fanatics trash homosexuals. Homosexuals trash religious people. The skinny guy at the gym trashes the huge guy who could lift a tractor. All of it is ridiculous. With the obsession most people have with social media, it has only gotten worse. Name-calling didn’t start with the internet, but it has helped it grow.
August 24, 2015 — 11:43 PM
Chelle (@chellenator) says:
While this is true, it’s extremely important to recognize and acknowledge that online abuse, just like offline abuse, disproportionately affects minorities. Sometimes it punches sideways, sure, but it punches down a hell of a lot more often, and usually with greater force.
August 25, 2015 — 5:18 AM
C R Smith says:
Does it really affect minorities more? Or is it that those are the cases that are more often heard and repeated? By using words like minority and majority you are admitting an obvious statistical difference. I am not saying that any abuse is acceptable, merely pointing out that hatred is blind. It happens to everyone.
August 25, 2015 — 7:54 AM
Cory says:
It happens to everyone but it happens to women and those who are not-white in far greater proportions.
Still not sure? Then I would say go on the internet as a women for a month or as an African-American male or an openly LGBTQ individual and see what happens.
I wish most people who say “is it really this much worse for X” would do this.
August 25, 2015 — 2:03 PM
Sarah Dahl says:
I agree, but how are women minorities? Don’t we hold 51 percent of this planet, but are being treated like we should step aside, endure, suffer all sorts of male “attack” (I have no better sum-up word, sorry), just because…what? There’s no dingdong dangling between our legs but we have other dingdongs higher up? What’s the point, aren’t we all HUMAN and how come half of humanity is treated like inferior still? I want not only MEN but ALL other women to stand up for each other and speak out, not turn away and let these assholes win. If every time such an attack happened the attacker would be showered with opposition and the victim showered with support, he would MAYBE just give up because it becomes too much work to attack all the supporters, too, AND the victim could stand back and let her supporters step in for a while?
(I don’t like all this terminology of male attacker and female victim, but isn’t this the most common constellation?) I’d definitely NOT walk away but speak out and support other victims and step in in their defence/support as I’ve done and will keep doing, hoping others would do the same for me. THANKS CHUCK & all other intelligent men for being so awesome as an ally and speaking out!
August 27, 2015 — 1:31 PM
Smoph says:
Absolutely Chelle. When you punch down with your privilege, it does so much more damage.
August 26, 2015 — 11:13 PM
Sarah Dahl says:
I agree, but how are women minorities? Don’t we hold 51 percent of this planet, but are being treated like we should step aside, endure, suffer all sorts of male “attack” (I have no better sum-up word, sorry), just because…what? There’s no dingdong dangling between our legs but we have other dingdongs higher up? What’s the point, aren’t we all HUMAN and how come half of humanity is treated like inferior still? I want not only MEN but ALL other women to stand up for each other and speak out, not turn away and let these assholes win. If every time such an attack happened the attacker would be showered with opposition and the victim showered with support, he would MAYBE just give up because it becomes too much work to attack all the supporters, too, AND the victim could stand back and let her supporters step in for a while?
(I don’t like all this terminology of male attacker and female victim, but isn’t this the most common constellation?) I’d definitely NOT walk away but speak out and support other victims and step in in their defence/support as I’ve done and will keep doing, hoping others would do the same for me. THANKS CHUCK & all other intelligent men for being so awesome as an ally and speaking out!
August 27, 2015 — 1:26 PM
rossnewberry says:
Thanks for taking a stand, Chuck. I arrived to that post after you’d already started layething the smacketh down, so I didn’t take any action other than reporting for harrassment and blocking Mr. Cranio-rectal Inversion.
Not that she required rescuing. If a kitten is up in a tree, it might need rescuing. If a mountain lion’s up in a tree, it’s probably about to unconditionally invite someone to lunch, and she’s more puma than pussycat. (I’m also not accusing you of White Knighting or and such. She’s awesome, and you’re awesome too. Other guy, for completeness, not awesome.)
My only notes on the exchange would be to modify a line you used to something more like my personal favorite, “You French kiss your mother with that mouth?”
August 24, 2015 — 2:13 PM
Beth says:
This is pretty much life for women, not just the internet. Our society is so inured to this kind of behavior toward women that we sigh and put up with it. If men took the time to untangle all the things women endure at the hands of the male gender they couldn’t take it. It’s easier to shovel the whole shit pile under the aegis of “a few stupid men,” than realize that our society as a whole does not respect women. And surprise, that ultimately hurts men.
If you don’t get it, buy and read the book The Gender Knot.
August 24, 2015 — 2:14 PM
paigevest says:
Thanks for the book rec. :o)
August 24, 2015 — 2:38 PM
Beth says:
You’re welcome. 🙂
August 24, 2015 — 7:01 PM
Owen Salava says:
Chuck, you’re a real mensch. The woman in question is a good friend of mine. It’s pretty saddening to see this going on, worse was his pathetic attempts to pull you in as a man, and therefore somehow an implicit supporter of his messed up viewpoint.
Sadly, the more you point out the error in this kind of human’s ways, the more they stiffen up at being called on it and become more intransigent. But it’s a good reminder of what kind of stupid is out there, and how it needs to be confronted and called out for what it is.
August 24, 2015 — 2:14 PM
elctrcrngr says:
“But men are sometimes surprised at this” I’m afraid I’m one of those guys who has recently been shocked and appalled at finding out just how much of this sickening behavior and commentary directed towards women is going on. It is simply beyond me how so-called ‘men’ can act like this. And I know it often gets a lot worse than verbal abuse.
I think men who deplore this sort of behavior *do* need to speak out against it more often. Not to be knights in shining armor, or rescuers, but to reinforce the message to these douchbag cavemen that their behavior will not be tolerated, and that their attitudes represent a minority of men. At least I sincerely hope they are a minority.
August 24, 2015 — 2:20 PM
Chelle (@chellenator) says:
Policing their own is actually one of the most helpful things allies can do. Have you seen the studies that show rapists believe everyone around them is doing the exact same thing, almost entirely because their peers laugh them off or choose not to call buddies out even when they’re pretty sure things aren’t okay? Silence is tacit endorsement, and it’s the same with internet violence. Change the dominant narrative. Make it absolutely clear that what they’re doing isn’t okay. Change their perception. Change everyone’s. And keep doing it.
August 25, 2015 — 5:04 AM
Lili says:
I love the internet, and strive to remain detoxed from my past addiction to it, but I still hold the anonymity of social media accountable for the disintegration of manners. Being an old (now retired) teacher, I have had the opportunity to watch courtesy and common sense devolve both on, and off-line. I had to quit reading most comments after interesting news articles because they encouraged me to use foul language. Being called a “dumb cunt” certainly generates the desire to give more than a few come-backs…. but I just can’t think of one as offensive for men. Ladies? Any suggestions? 😉
August 24, 2015 — 2:27 PM
paigevest says:
Generally, calling him something “girly”…. Pick a feminine insult. Because it’s insulting to most men to be compared to anything womanly, don’tchaknow? =/
August 24, 2015 — 2:41 PM
wagnerel says:
The problem with the feminizing insults is that they reinforce the whole notion that feminine is lesser and that there’s some big, special deal about being a MAN.
I’d probably go with maturity related ones, like assuming he’s a little boy or stating that he’s clearly up past his bedtime, since he’s getting cranky.
But really, it’s probably best not to feed the trolls at all. Block them, ignore them etc. And if they cross the line from being annoying to actually being threatening, report them.
August 24, 2015 — 10:34 PM
Hamnerd says:
I found that Facebook does absolutely nothing when trolls are reported. Maybe if trolls were prosecuted for their behavior, it might make them think twice.
August 24, 2015 — 11:09 PM
Teresa Reasor says:
I am so tempted to make a list here but I’ll refrain. LOL
August 24, 2015 — 2:32 PM
jack lee taylor says:
Fucking bullshit!
Thanks for sharing this, Chuck. What an asshole!
Sorry for the cursing, but I have a seven-year-old daughter. I can’t stand that I have to prepare her one day for this type of shit.
August 24, 2015 — 2:35 PM
M (@Rattify) says:
To anyone who would point at the woman’s sass and say that she invited abuse thereby: quite aside from any argument about whether anyone “invites” abuse, let me assure you that polite, deferential women get treated EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
August 24, 2015 — 2:45 PM
Beth says:
Indeed.
August 24, 2015 — 7:00 PM
Book of Kels (@Nezchan) says:
Women wearing burquas get raped and told they’re leading men on. It’s literally a no-win situation.
August 25, 2015 — 10:47 AM
brandy says:
Funny thing happened when I recently changed my avatar on Twitter to something fairly ambiguous (it’s a picture of my cat, because internet). I would think other people don’t assume to know my gender based on that little picture, but a couple of times I was referred to using male gendered pronouns and the reactions of others who have male avatar photos on their profiles and seem to be men is oddly less vitriolic, more measured. Super douchey sometimes, still, sure. But not grossly sexualized and potentially hyper-aggressive, as it might be if they figured I am actually a woman. I watched – and occasionally waded into – the Hugo’s chatter with a mix of horror and morbid fascination at times. I saw a lot of really disgusting behavior on display (in between the high points – it was a freaking rollercoaster of a trainwreck). There are hashtags I avoid at all costs, because I know the type who will come running. I’m on the radar of a couple after this past weekend, and now I’m on guard.
August 24, 2015 — 2:46 PM
mamaslayer says:
Could I maybe have the turd buckets name please? I feel like screaming at someone I don’t know. What a complete asshat…..ugh…..I can’t believe I’m still fighting against this shit
August 24, 2015 — 2:59 PM
Killerpuppytails says:
I’ve noticed that a LOT of the time, the term “cognitive dissonance” has been used by men trying to discredit women making salient points on the internet, as though smart people won’t recognize that this is becoming a coded way to say “the b*t*h is CRAZY.”
August 24, 2015 — 3:06 PM
mariceljimenez says:
I wonder if they even know what “cognitive dissonance” means…
August 24, 2015 — 4:31 PM
elctrcrngr says:
Not a chance! They picked it up somewhere, thought it made them sound educated, and mimicked it.
August 25, 2015 — 12:37 AM
Ivy says:
WRT the poster’s responses, there is actually no ‘cognitive dissonance’. But her commenter does deploy the term as a ‘thought terminating cliche’ – and that’s interesting, because the particular cliches that each subculture sports are revealing of where those groups get their ideas and nourish their obsessions.
August 25, 2015 — 6:45 AM
Book of Kels (@Nezchan) says:
A lot of the anti-feminism, anti-racism and so forth crew take a cargo cult approach to the language of social justice, using terms they’ve heard as talismans to ward off criticism. To them, these are magic words of attack or projection, often with no understanding that they actually have meanings. As elctrcrngr says, they pick this stuff up and throw it back like a grenade, assuming it’ll work just as well in the other direction.
August 25, 2015 — 10:50 AM
Deb says:
Miriam whispers… “I would really like to shake his hand.”
August 24, 2015 — 3:07 PM
Monica-Marie Vincent says:
My BIGGEST questions are: Why is “cognitive dissonance” the ONLY big words these people know? And in related vein, why is calling women sluts & whores the only come backs they can muster? Has our education system let us down THIS hard? O_0
August 24, 2015 — 3:16 PM
Chelle (@chellenator) says:
“Has our education system let us down THIS hard?”
Ha. Implying a woman is promiscuous has been the go-to insult for hundreds of years. Our approach to women’s sexuality is better these days, but sexual shaming is still de rigueur. It ain’t new. Not in the slightest.
August 25, 2015 — 5:30 AM
R. H. Rush says:
Because when you see women merely as sexual objects, those are the insults that come most easily to mind.
August 25, 2015 — 5:02 PM
joshuamneff says:
It’s sad how the same troll who will hurl misogynist, rapey bile at a woman will try to engage me in “reasoned debate”–at least until it’s clear that I’m not willing to give them an inch, which is when they start throwing out the homophobic, “Alpha Male”-based insults. But they’ll start with the “Hey, we’re both reasonable men, let’s discuss this as an intellectual exercise” with me but go straight to the violence and sexism with women. Gee, why is that?
August 24, 2015 — 3:22 PM
Kelly Roberts says:
I love Brandy’s take on changing to an ambiguous avatar. With a non-gender-specific name like mine, it would be interesting to see how the other half lives online.
August 24, 2015 — 3:39 PM
Tee Morris says:
I’ve always wondered…would these asshats actually talk like that to a woman if they had to look her in the eye?
I’d lay money on that they wouldn’t. And it would be a really safe wager, methinks.
August 24, 2015 — 3:42 PM
mariceljimenez says:
I wonder the same thing. I’m sure one or two would, but the majority wouldn’t.
August 24, 2015 — 4:07 PM
Robert Sadler says:
They probably wouldn’t have the balls to look a woman in the eye in the first place, never mind talk like that while doing it.
August 24, 2015 — 4:12 PM
Kristi says:
You know what? I’d almost rather they did. A guy who’s polite to you while looking you in the eye while thinking the same things that the asshat above typed isn’t any better.
August 24, 2015 — 7:16 PM
AntVicino says:
Jesus, what year is this?
*Refers to a calendar*
Huh, weird. It says here we’re like a dozen decades past the Stone Age… so, how come people still act so stupid? Did I miss a memo?
August 24, 2015 — 3:49 PM
Hamnerd says:
I don’t use Facebook any longer for this very reason but I have gravitated towards Instagram. I can’t tell you how many times a male has shown up and trolled on my page that I’m a “slut” for using birth control. (Yes, slut shamed just for mentioning that I am using birth control in a committed relationship) or I’m a “MURDERER” for being pro-choice, or that I’m a “Feminazi” for being a feminist (ie: wanting to be treated like a human being). Many of these trolls appear to be very young men.
And if I try to defend myself against these mysognistic idiots I’m called a “cunt”.
It’s a way to try to keep women in “their place”. Their attempt to assert their dominance. Where do they learn such behavior? Parents?
August 24, 2015 — 3:50 PM
Patrick Dorn says:
I hope it’s not just me, but the whole quoted interaction from both sides seemed intended to insult and demean. I’m not going to defend either side. The entire exchange is ugly.
August 24, 2015 — 3:52 PM
Angela says:
Not just you. But he escalated beyond the bounds of normal crapthrowing fairly quickly. Her snark didn’t justify his sexual attack on her.
August 24, 2015 — 4:01 PM
Jonathon Side says:
Guy shows up to make crazy accusations, and quickly devolves to implying she’s a whore and ends up calling her a ‘double fisting cunt’… but she’s JUST AS BAD for snarking back at him and calling him a lapdog and telling him to fuck off…
Yeeeeeeah, I would not be surprised if it’s just you.
August 24, 2015 — 4:07 PM
Angela says:
I had a kind fellow tell me to kill myself during a discussion the other day.
It wouldn’t have been so noticeable, except he told me to kill myself during a discussion about how people’s mental health can be harmed from negative statement they receive online. I was arguing that total protection from crap can actually be detrimental, although having some controls would be beneficial. He believed everything should be labeled with trigger warnings and completely sanitized.
Yeah, cognitive dissonance is totally a thing.
August 24, 2015 — 3:58 PM
D.R.Sylvester says:
*facepalm* you couldn’t make some of this shit up… absolutely agree that people could take a hit to the mentals from things said on the interweb. I just hope that the next generations grow up inured to all trolling, by virtue of early exposure
August 24, 2015 — 5:35 PM
Jonathon Side says:
Ugh. Goddammit, and guys like that think they’re doing their side some kind of favour by acting like asswipes…
August 24, 2015 — 4:08 PM
mariceljimenez says:
Thank you Chuck. I know you don’t mean to be a “knight in shining armor”, but hell, I like it! When men do it, other men listen. When women do it, we’re being “problematic” or “sensitive” or whatever. So thank you. Anyway, I think if someone did some sort of psychological profiling on these kinds of trolling internet people you would get a pretty typical profile of a poorly educated, insecure person.
August 24, 2015 — 4:20 PM
Kylie says:
I agree. It’s annoying as hell that some guys won’t listen until it’s another man talking, but it happens. Having men happy to jump in and offer assistance is awesome, because for some women it’s no big deal, and the drama rolls off their back. For others, it’s a terrifying moment and it’s vital for them to know they’re not alone.
August 24, 2015 — 7:18 PM
James R. Tuck says:
The thing with this kind of asshole is that he didn’t have a discussion where he was annoyed that he couldn’t change someone who was wrong’s mind and then got terse in frustration.
He went straight to sexual assault via social media.
That’s a signal that he has ZERO respect for women.
He said something and a woman didn’t just capitulate to his ego so he begins with that shit…..that’s a guy who needs to be dealt with.
People piss me off.
August 24, 2015 — 4:30 PM
Deborah Leigh says:
I once said something that wasn’t shoe-licking praise about Michael Jordan and basketball, and the poop storm that unleashed was disgusting. The men went straight to all of those b***h-whore terms. It’s astounding how the distance of the Internet lets people reveal their nastier side. If we had been on an elevator, those dudes would have likely just shaken their heads and said, “You’re totally wrong.” But the Internet Distance allowed them, like alcohol, to say what they *really* think.
So, when we women suspect that there is sometimes a deep-seated hatred of women lurking beneath SOME men, this is what we’re talking about. “I don’t agree with you about Michael Jordan.” “Shut up, B***H.” ‘Nkay.
Yes, I wear long hair. I don’t do that so that you can more easily drag me by it.
August 24, 2015 — 4:39 PM
James says:
You have a small typo. The phrase “public cheese grater” should really be “pubic cheese grater.”
August 24, 2015 — 4:56 PM
D.R.Sylvester says:
*throws tennis ball* hahahhahhhahahhaha Oh man, I bet someone sitting in their mum’s basement was LIVID.
You rock, Chuck. Ladies, you also rock. These puppies though… *punts puppy into the sun*
August 24, 2015 — 5:29 PM
Gareth Skarka says:
I know it’s horribly, horribly retrograde of me, but when faced with these clowns, I always think that the problem would be neatly solved by the rest of us Alpha-Male-ing the SHIT out of them in person. Intimidate, bark, or full-on slap-across-the-face. Shame them. Bring them to heel. Because let’s face it, that’s something that we KNOW they’d respond to on a visceral, genetic level, because they’re all insecure primates who are wired that way.
And I don’t mean this in a “charge in as a white-knight” sort of way, but more of a “cleaning house in our own gender” sort of way. It’s long past time to take out the trash, pour encourager les autres.
Yeah. I know. Not a viable solution. But frustration makes me wish it so.
August 24, 2015 — 6:24 PM
socalvillaguy says:
Perhaps it’s my age, perhaps it was the way I was raised, but any time I see a group of so-called males bashing women or ganging up against them or preventing a level playing field in any segment of society (including the arts), I have this fantasy of grabbing the by the scruff of the neck, dragging them to their parents’ front doorstep, and demand to what techniques they used to raise such troglodytes. If they are typical parents, they would happily accept the exchange of their hands for mine and then apply the proper discipline … no matter HOW old they were. Rudeness, bullying, and just general assclownery would limit one’s life expectancy in a more primitive world. Alas, we live in more enlightened times.
Borrowing a phrase from an old friend, these toads are lower than whale feces and there’s nothing lower than whale feces. I’m glad that got faced at the Hugos and hope the trend continues long into the future.
August 24, 2015 — 7:42 PM
Amy says:
Wow. Just wow. I know this happens all the time but I still get surprised by trolls.
The LATIMES is an especially bad place to post a remark. You can be talking about affordable housing and some troll will say “You sound like a fattie”. LOL. It’d be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Most men I know aren’t like this, it’s like a special breed raised on internet message boards. My husband and sons don’t do this. I don’t understand it. A weird deflection/fear response.
August 24, 2015 — 7:50 PM
Hamnerd says:
It kind of makes me wonder…if many of the male aquaintences in my day to day life are thinking those nasty things about women, but not actually saying them to me or other women out loud.
August 24, 2015 — 11:15 PM
elctrcrngr says:
I’m probably out of line here, but I feel like your on the edge of losing trust in all men. Guys that think these despicable things when you meet them face to face are going to give some sort of clue as to their real attitude. I’m pretty sure it will be easy to spot, too. They simply aren’t intelligent or sophisticated enough to control themselves, as evidenced by their online behavior.
August 25, 2015 — 12:56 AM
Christa Starkov says:
Yeah, I know the feeling. I was recently called a “desperate liar,” “attention whore,” and a plethora of other things for disagreeing with a certain group that I won’t name here because they’re so immature, and have no lives, that they’d harass me further if I so much as mentioned it. People are idiots on the Internet. Especially to women. It’s disgusting, and it needs to stop. When you can’t even express your opinion without being belittled just for who and what you are, then something is wrong.
August 24, 2015 — 7:59 PM
Kayla says:
There’s a little rage going on in the section of my brain that wants to deny that these people still exist in this day and age, despite living in an abusive-relationship situation (years ago). And I know this isn’t an issue just between men and women, but aren’t we, as human beings, better than any of the racist/sexist/fucking-ridiculous-unnecessary bullshit that isn’t extinct yet?
Has all the things created to improve our lives (namely, internet) made a portion of the population so uncomfortable with anything that isn’t in the realm of what they call “normal” (because Internet’s allow the sharing of varying ideas and beliefs, and awesome shit, and not-so awesome stuff) feel “rationally justified” making such rude remarks to make their beliefs concerning how their little world should work seem agreeable and appealing?
I, like many other commentors stated, do not want to feel the need to prepare my daughters for this sort of nonsense. And I’m in the midst of planning a fantasy novel (or series if this story keeps expanding like it has); I want to have my name on it (at least a female pen name), despite all marketing strategies strongly advising against expressing that I am a *gasp* female fantasy writer.
As a friend of mine would say, “I don’t wish you’d get hit by a bus, but if you were to be hit by a bus, I might be driving that bus.” Not that violence would fix any of this, but (in my rage-logic), perhaps natural selection needs a little push.
August 25, 2015 — 1:31 AM
Max says:
Gareth’s solution works for me. I’d be perfectly okay with the male gender cleaning its own house. This isn’t just name calling. It’s violent threats. Threats like “I know where you live and I’m going to come over and rape and kill you.” And how do you know which ones mean it and which ones are all bluff? I’ve met a couple who meant it. It wasn’t fun. And it goes on every day, all day, on the internet, and women’s voices are silenced because you know? I personally don’t want to be raped and killed by some crazy on the internet and I can’t tell the big talkers from the whackos with knives. What’s really astonishing however is that anyone wants to sound like that as a big talker.
August 25, 2015 — 3:04 AM
Amanda Hagarty says:
He keeps using the term cognitive dissonance and I am not sure it means what he thinks it means.
People are just mother effing terrible to each other all the time. That has been my experience. And as much as I hate to detract from your message but this isn’t just a man on woman hate. I deal with haters all the time as a vurtual land baroness and I see man on woman hate, woman on woman hate, normal on vamp-rpg hate, and on and on. Hate hate hate.
I was called inhuman and worse today when someone who was kicked off his virtual land for being 2 days behind in his rent. Then he went on to gripe that I was the rule and not the exception because it had happened to him with 5 other landlords. To which I had to respond with “maybe you should pay your rent.”
But I learned a long time ago is best not to respond at all unless I am just in the mood to toy with them for a few moments of amusement. Because responding gives them a target. And responding in a way that goads them really really isn’t any kind of high road. The highest road is to mute, block, ban, and report–ignore and move on. If I try to make an abuse report after shouting “bring it on you little turd” then then they don’t take my report seriously. So if I actually want to pursue those channels I especialy don’t respond.
It’s hard though. I understand. I have only come to this level of understanding after almost 20 years of dealing with hate online. But if you really want to do something about it, and not just mess with their sad little heads, you need to document, report, mute and block. If there are witnesses, discourage them from engaging but encourage them to also document. And then get as many people as possible to make abuse reports. The more people the better, so the report is taken more seriously and dealt with more quickly.
August 25, 2015 — 3:13 AM
addy says:
its comments like these that make me wish there were like buttons.
It seems there is bile and filth everywhere on the internet but your comment sections are always fresh and filled with the like minded. I know you must really have to sif and scrub these comments Chuck but boy do i appreciate it.
August 25, 2015 — 3:41 AM