Note: for now, comments are open on this post. Any trollish or truly nasty comments will be drop-kicked into the spam oubliette. Let’s aim for reasonable discussion only this time around.
So, my last — and admittedly ragey — post about spanking garnered more attention than I perhaps expected for a post on Christmas Eve. It went… I believe the word is “viral,” particularly over Facebook. Like a norovirus on a cruise ship, it spread very fast in a very short amount of time.
It inspired a great many views and a whole lotta comments.
Some comments were great. Thoughtful, whether for or against. Some people told stories about themselves as parents or about themselves as children. Some of these stories were honestly heartbreaking (and I suggest you read through the comments on that post).
And then there were those comments that got a good bit toxic. I had to dump so many people in the spam oubliette they were probably corded like firewood down there. Comments that invoked “Obama’s America,” that made eye-popping assertions about school shootings, or that just plain insulted me or threatened me (had quite a few people tell me they were going to spank me, which, you know, thanks, but we’re not that intimate).
Regardless, some folks took me to task — fairly or not, I dunno — for not offering data or solutions up front in the post. I didn’t necessarily think I needed to offer solutions to “don’t spank your children” in the same way that I don’t need to offer solutions for “don’t steal stuff” or “don’t chase rat poison with bleach,” I thought the proscription against spanking in my, erm, unique and fist-shaking way was enough.
But I’d like to address some of that stuff now. In a decidedly less ragey way — some puritanical folk took exception to my use of profanity, and as they are not regular readers of this vulgarity-smeared blog-box, I will happily take all the “fucks” and “shits” and for now put them in a box.
Let’s answer some of the questions or comments about spanking, shall we?
Spanking doesn’t have any negative consequences.
Science would seem to disagree with you. If you Google “effects of spanking,” you are likely to receive a page full of articles and information suggesting that spanking children can have a number of negative effects: it can increase aggression, it can increase depression, it can limit cognitive ability overall, and it can specifically hinder language abilities. Time Magazines’s “Long-Term Effects of Spanking” is maybe worth a read, if only for quotes like: “…spanking sets up a loop of bad behavior. Corporal punishment instills fear rather than understanding. Even if children stop tantrums when spanked, that doesn’t mean they get why they shouldn’t have been acting up in the first place. What’s more, spanking sets a bad example, teaching children that aggressive behavior is a solution to their parents’ problems.”
Or, “Spanking your kids could affect their vocabulary.”
Or, the American Psychological Association’s assessment (spoiler warning: don’t do it).
Or, “What’s the Problem With Spanking?” a post that details the effects of spanking in the child (how it affects their limbic system) and how it also affects the parent doing the spanking.
And on, and on.
I want real data, not interpretations of data.
A reasonable request, given how articles on the Internet can make all kinds of assertions based on flimsy data. Data can be cherry-picked to tell different stories; you ain’t wrong there.
Here’s a study from the CMAJ, detailing over 20 years of research into the subject.
Money quote: “The evidence is clear and compelling — physical punishment of children and youth plays no useful role in their upbringing and poses only risks to their development. The conclusion is equally compelling — parents should be strongly encouraged to develop alternative and positive approaches to discipline.”
Ah, wary of those dubious Canadians, eh? With their maple syrup and their Tim Bits.
Let’s then take a gander at a study from American Academy of Pediatrics.
There you’ll find:
“Conclusion: These results represent a strong test of the links between spanking and a child’s aggressive behavior and vocabulary, using prospective longitudinal models controlling for a number of family, child, and parent variables and earlier child aggression and vocabulary. We add novel information about the role of fathers’ spanking and add to an emerging literature on the effect of spanking on cognitive outcomes.
Future work should focus on providing families a clearer picture of the outcomes associated with spanking and more information about what discipline practices may have the desired effect on improving functioning, so that they can move beyond punishment practices to the incorporation of positive parenting behaviors with the potential to encourage healthy child trajectories.”
But what about the Gunnoe study?
Dr. Marjorie Gunnoe did a study that suggests that spanking your children at a certain age leads to an improvement in performance (school, specifically) and happiness.
If you feel that’s justification enough to spank your kids, so be it.
I might suggest looking at some considerations, though, first. (In brief: it’s a small, unpublished study that acts as an outlier to a far larger body of evidence.)
I don’t trust studies.
Be that as it may, if there exists a body of evidence that suggests that spanking your kids could be harming your kids psychologically, is it worth the risk? Given that spanking is not the only — nor even the best — way to impart lessons or teach respect.
[Insert anti-science rhetoric here]
Then we are at an impass. I like science because it tries to show me the various causes and effects in this universe. But you are eschewing science, which is your right. I hope your denial of gravity allows you to fly, and your ignorance of entropy lets you live forever.
Shine on, you crazy anti-science diamond.
But please don’t hit your kids just the same.
I was spanked, and I’m fine.
And that’s great. But first, that’s an example of an anecdote, or “artisinal data.” Which is to say, it’s evidence of precisely nothing. Some people live through horrific things and actually turn out okay — but that doesn’t make those horrific things laudable, or worth recommending. People who survive cancer don’t say, “Everybody should have cancer because it teaches you to respect life.”
I was spanked, and it taught me respect, and [insert insult or threat here].
I would argue spanking taught you no respect at all, then. Irony, it seems, is alive and well.
My kids were spanked, and they’re just fine.
Again: “artisinal data.”
And also: you don’t actually know that.
Parents are notoriously out-of-touch with their children’s feelings. I bet a great many parents feel a great many things about their children that are a thousand miles from accurate.
But how are my kids going to learn their lessons?
Presumably the same way they do elsewhere: through teaching, compassion, and through consequence and discipline. A lack of spanking does not equate to a lack of discipline any more than a lack of war equates to a lack of diplomacy or a lack of feeding your kids candy equates to them starving. Point is, parents have a plethora of tools in the ol’ parenting toolbox that they can reach for. And that can mean leaving this old, ugly tool in the box.
Not spanking does not mean freedom from consequence or discipline.
Not spanking does not mean appeasement or spoiling.
But how are my kids going to learn to avoid dangerous behaviors?
Again, I might recommend looking in your toolbox for other parenting methods. Children — particularly young children, who are the ones most often the ones trying to lick light sockets or run into traffic — respond to a variety of negative stimuli, and spending any time with said child will teach you these things before long. Spanking needn’t be one of those negative stimuli.
A whack on the ass is better than a dead kid.
Yes, that’s true. Though that’s a bit of a false dichotomy and an appeal to absurd logic. You could also break the kid’s ankles so he doesn’t run into traffic. What? A kid with two broken ankles is better than a dead kid, isn’t it?
The disciplinary spectrum is broad and multifarious. Try something else.
You spank the dog to teach it not to run out onto the street.
That’s actually not true.
That is in fact a very good way to ensure your dog runs out into the street, away from the guy who’s trying to smack it. Why would the dog come to someone who wants to beat it?
It’s not abuse.
For now, let’s assume that “abuse” is a legal definition. And you’re right. It’s not. Spanking is — in this country, at least — legal. I cannot dispute your right to do it, but I can question why you feel it’s necessary. The point for me isn’t that it’s abuse — it’s that spanking your child is hitting your child. Literally. It’s you hitting your child. It’s you undertaking a hostile, humiliating action that would be illegal if delivered to another adult, or in many cases, even an animal. It may not be abuse, but it is you — a big adult-sized person — grabbing a tiny human and raising your hand to them in the guise of teaching them a lesson. Which is not what spanking does, by the way. Spanking delivers punishment, not information. It imparts castigation, not wisdom.
It’s a punitive measure, not an instructive one.
It’s just a tap on the butt (or thigh or wrist or or or). It’s harmless.
If that’s all it is, it’s probably harmless. It’s also probably not particularly effective. The thing that makes spanking work is that it’s a) at least somewhat painful and/or b) humiliating.
That’s how you make spanking effective. At least in the short term, for a certain age range (3-8). Spanking is a quick fix, not a real solution. As noted, while it may correct behavior, it may introduce other worse behaviors as a result.
Consider (here an admittedly anecdotal story, so do with this as you see fit) — when I was a kid, I was yelled at a lot for spilling my drink at the table. (I was, and still am, clumsy.) Being yelled at didn’t stop me from spilling — it made it worse. Because I was so anxious about that singular act I was likelier to knock over a drink than I was to keep the damn thing upright. Spanking works because it instills fear of being hurt or embarrassed — those are not clear-headed ways to actually teach a lesson. It’s a Skinner Box style of parenting — deliver an electric shock so that the kid doesn’t push the wrong button. But your children are not rats or monkeys in a lab. They’re little people. With enthusiasm and intelligence in a great big endless well — a well you can poison.
But the Bible says —
No. Nope. Mm-mm. Sorry.
It says “Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child” and —
No. Seriously. No. Don’t bring that here.
But I’m a Christian and you need to respect me and my beliefs.
I respect that you have beliefs, but I don’t need to respect those beliefs or you for holding them. Listen, here’s the thing, if you’re a Christian, and you cleave toward the kinder, more reasonable side of that spectrum, you have my respect. If you use the Bible like a VCR instruction manual and believe that every line of text is 100% literal and must be adhered to, then we are not going to find a great deal of common ground. The Bible is an agglomeration of stories broken into two larger books — the Old Testament and the New Testament, with the “sequel” book challenging some of the ways of the OT. This is not a book that well-agrees with itself (nor should it): hell, it tells four somewhat contradictory-yet-canonical tales of the dude whose name is titular to the religion.
The Bible says a lot of things and I bet you don’t do them all. It’s got suggestions on how to sell your children into slavery or why you shouldn’t eat shellfish or get tattoos.
And you’re going to take one line from Proverbs as a reason to spank your kids?
Let’s look at more from Proverbs.
“When you sit to dine with a ruler, note well what is before you, and put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony.” — Proverbs 23:1-2.
Do you do that if you feel gluttonous? The thing with the knife and the throat?
Did you know that in Proverbs it’s noted that wine will bite like a viper, and riches will grow wings and fly away like an eagle? That your love and faithfulness must be tied around your neck? Apparently these things could not possibly be metaphor and must literally be true!
When Proverbs speaks about an overflowing cistern whose waters you should not share with your neighbors, do you believe that to be an admonishment against sharing water with your jerky neighbors? Or, in the context of the surrounding text, do you (correctly) see that it’s a metaphor for not sharing your love in an act of adultery?
Proverbs is a man’s instruction to his son, and it is poetic. Complicated and fascinating and sometimes beautiful in its metaphor and in its language (language that is, to be clear, translated through various steps — and language that is often favorable toward men but not toward women).
It was also written a very, very long time ago.
Plenty of Christians do not hit their children, and here are some reasons why.
My parents spanked me and you’re insulting them.
I’m not interested in condemning those who came before us. People did a lot of things 2000 years ago, 200 years ago, even 20 years ago, that we don’t do today because we have things like new information to help guide us. Women used to smoke while pregnant. They didn’t know any better. We used to have asbestos all up in our house. Again: now we know better. Condemning those who came before isn’t the point.
The point is, we have new, better information now. And that new and better information suggests very strongly that spanking ain’t the best course of action for your kids and may have a high cost with too small a payoff.
This is about looking and moving forward with intelligence and wisdom.
Spanking is okay, as long as it’s done with explanation and love.
I’m afraid I don’t believe that, and it sounds awfully close to the same reasons used for husbands to beat their wives and would further seem to help confirm that pattern — that violence is okay as long as they know “I hit you because I love you.” Or “I hit you to teach you a very important lesson.” That’s the lesson you teach a spanked child: that hitting someone is a tool of control and a demonstration of love. What kind of spouse will they be? What kind of spouse will they seek?
Something-something kids today with their hair and their clothes and this is why they’re disrespectful because we can’t spank them anymore. Also something-something school shootings.
Well, first, you probably can still spank them. Legally, I mean.
Also, click this link.
Therein you’ll find that states with schools that allow corporal punishment have more school shootings, not fewer school shootings. You’ll also find that the number of students being spanked or paddled in school every year has gone down — and so has the threat of violence (and to a lesser extent actual violence) against teachers in school. States with spanking in schools also reveal below average test scores and below average graduation rates. And eight of the top ten paddling/spanking states are also in the top ten states of incarceration rates.
Related:
“15 Historical Complaints About Young People Ruining Everything.”
You’re judging me by my parenting choices.
Let’s take judgment out of the equation. You are presently free to discipline your children as you see fit and I can’t stop you. And it falls within the rigors of the law, so you have that going for you.
But I’d hope that you take a moment to read through all of this and before you decide to spank your child again you consider the wealth of information available to you on this great big knowledge-fed beast called “the Internet.” I’d hope that you recognize that spanking may work and may not have any negative effects but it damn well might. And once you’ve done it, you can’t undo it. Those snakes do not go back into the can.
As I said before: your children look to you for a hand to help, not a hand to strike them. And spanking them is striking them. That’s the nature of the act, I’m afraid to say.
L Nadine De Lisle (@MotherofaSon) says:
Thank you, Chuck, for continuing to take a stand against grown-ups hitting children.
January 5, 2014 — 10:39 AM
elina says:
Beautiful.
January 5, 2014 — 10:39 AM
dena mckinnon says:
I never gave either of my girls a spanking. Both turned out to be super good kids. I think positive reinforcement is much better…just my opinion. Of course, we should all confront dangerous or bad behavior but with words…not a belt.
January 5, 2014 — 10:44 AM
steve christopher says:
I used to believe spanking had no effects on me. My dad hit us with a belt and he was always angry when he did. When he walked in a room, we kids walked out. This created a viscous cycle where I am certain the more we ignored him the more hurt and upset he got at us. The more upset he got at us the more we hated and avoided him. We never hugged or kissed him.
The first time I kissed my father on the forehead was seconds after his last breath.
January 5, 2014 — 10:45 AM
terribleminds says:
Wow. I’m sorry to hear that.
January 5, 2014 — 10:50 AM
K says:
“spare the rod, spoil the child”
The rod that is referenced is the shepherd’s rod, used to guide his flock from danger. It means, guide and teach your child, not literally beat them with a stick.
January 5, 2014 — 10:46 AM
mckkenzie says:
Thanks, I was planning to point this one out too. For backup, anyone can reference Dr. William Sears, noted pediatrician and author of gobs of Christianity-based books on child rearing and father of something like 10 non-spanked kids. If even _that_ guy thinks the Bible doesn’t advocate spanking… We’re not religious, but his books are pretty helpful no matter what your beliefs!
January 5, 2014 — 11:33 AM
Tymber Dalton says:
@K – THANK YOU. A voice of reason.
January 5, 2014 — 1:51 PM
Georgia says:
What a fabulous example of how metaphors can be interpreted to have a variety of meanings. This is why using the Bible as a guidebook can be quite an interesting problem…which meaning do you choose? Which piece of advice do you ignore?
And this interpretive dance we have on our hands lends itself to the argument as a whole–no matter what the context of a spanking may be (was the parent angry or had they given themselves time to cool down? Did the child understand why they were being spanked? Was a belt or a hand used?) … spanking is hitting. Just like Mr. W said. That’s the one irrefutable truth that connects all of these interpretations and circumstances. Hitting another human being (or any other sentient being, for that matter) is an act of violence. There’s just no getting around that.
Perhaps the discussion as to whether or not spanking has a perceptibly negative effect on a child / grown-up child can be simplified/thrown out by noting that violence is violence is violence. Context is moot.
Children are people. People should not hit other people.
Using violence to teach good behavior…is rather like fucking for virginity.
Beating a person that doesn’t have the right to vote … hmm … what suddenly pops to mind?
Using violence to teach discipline because a person doesn’t have the capacity to understand the nuances of permissible adult behavior — who else are we spanking, then, too? People with learning disabilities? The elderly?
Using an excerpt from a longer story to prove a specific point often obscures the root of the issue. Who said that the ‘rod’ is a shepherd’s rod? Who knows how a shepherd actually uses his rod? Is it pertinent?
I have to admit that I was on the fence (metaphorically, of course) about spanking, just like I used to be on the fence about vegetarianism (now I know that I’m alright with killing a living, sentient being and eating it AS LONG as it was raised in humane conditions and had a good life. Death wasn’t the issue. It was the violence and inhumane treatment part.) I’m happy to say that thinking about it from a critical perspective really made the difference. Being an adult means making critical decisions and taking responsibility for those decisions even if it’s inconvenient and takes more effort than irresponsibility. Otherwise, we’re still children, no? Anyhow, thanks, Chuck, for the platform of ideas. It’s pretty cool.
January 13, 2014 — 8:42 AM
Katherine G says:
Thanks for compiling a bunch of useful research.
January 5, 2014 — 10:47 AM
Teddy Fuhringer says:
Thank you Chuck. I was spanked, a lot. The only positive thing it did was make me totally incapable of ever hitting a child, under any circumstances. I’m so glad to see someone post sources of actual scientific studies instead of saying “I heard” or “I read”. Keep up the good work.
January 5, 2014 — 10:48 AM
fredhicks says:
I’m sure I’ve been spanked more than twice as a kid, but there’s two I remember.
Once I was really small, and upset with my Mom, and walked right up behind her and bit her ass. Hard. In nearly all opportunities I’ve had to reflect on the spanking I got after doing that, I… kinda deserved it. That is to say, I don’t really reflect any blame or lingering bad feelings on Mom, there. Maybe it could have been handled better, but fuck, man, I *bit her ass*.
Point being, at least as I parse it, learn from it, etc, it felt like a proportionate response. 99.9% of the time spanking isn’t a proportionate response, especially when handicapping for the adult/child power and size differential. And perhaps telling, I don’t really remember any other time in my childhood that my parents sought out spanking. Maybe that was the incident where they decided there were better ways. Forgiveness and understanding from me, there.
The other time was with a paddle, used by Mrs. Thrower, my 3rd grade teacher. I got it because I hadn’t done a particular work assignment (because distractions). And I still resent her for it. It’s colored my memories of her and her class in as unpleasant a light as can be managed. I’m sure there were positives about that year. The school was good. Interactions I had with other adults were positive. But what it taught me was that tyrants can come in all sizes, in power over all sorts of petty dictatorships. I think I could’ve learned that just fine from a book.
Make of that what you will.
January 5, 2014 — 10:54 AM
mittensmorgul says:
Holy crows. I was spanked ONCE as a child (no recollection as to why), and it stands out like a horrible red splotch across my childhood. I was maybe five or six at the time. I remember my dad looking horrified with himself, and I remember FEELING horrified. There was lots of silent apology and hurt on both sides, and it NEVER happened again. That seemed to me, as a little kid, to be the final acknowledgement that even if what I had done was wrong and deserved correction, the way my dad reacted was also wrong.
When my own daughter was about two, toddling about, she did something that frankly terrified me. Eleven years later, I don’t even remember what it was, other than it was something involving the kitchen, and that she’d done something very dangerous. I remember it had to be my fault, as the parent, for not protecting her from the myriad dangers a kitchen presents to a wobbly toddler with a curiosity streak a mile wide. In my terror, I scooped her up, pulled her into the living room, and swatted her diaper-padded behind. When I plopped her back on the ground, she looked up at me, tears in her eyes, with zero understanding of what she’d done to turn mommy into a monster. She looked more terrified than I’d felt for her safety only seconds before. And I NEVER want to see that look on her face EVER again. I hugged her and tried my best to explain how much what she’d done scared me, but she was two years old. All she got from the whole interaction was that for ten seconds her mother became a raging beast who was willing to hurt her. And I’ve never, ever, ever repeated that mistake.
Hitting doesn’t teach anyone anything. It just hurts.
January 5, 2014 — 10:58 AM
Tymber Dalton says:
Thank you for this. I never spanked my son (which would have been difficult even if I’d wanted to, which I didn’t, since he’s in a wheelchair). I never remember being spanked, although I’m told that once I got a swat on the ass when about 2 for shoplifting gum. LOL My point is, my mom had a “look.” I used to joke that I hoped I absorbed by osmosis that “look” when I had kids of my own. But more important, I raised my son like a puppy.
Now, before you jump my shit, let me explain. We used to raise service dog puppies for a group. Obviously, we never beat them. We used positive reinforcement operant conditioning. Gentle methods. Clicker training. But there were “tones” in commands the puppies recognized. Without realizing I was doing it, my son learned those same tones. If he was sitting in the grocery cart and leaning toward the displays to grab something, I didn’t say in one of those sickening sing-song syruppy voices, “Oh, no, don’t do that.” I would look at him and say, “Leave it.” Calmly, but pointedly. And as soon as he looked at me and leaned back into the cart I immediately praised him.
My husband used to be a newspaper reporter covering county government. Because of my son’s medical issues, he would frequently go to work with him. We never had him pitch a tantrum. Ever. He was always praised by people at how well behaved and happy he was. He was never scared of us, but he knew he had boundaries. As he got older, things like time-out or taking away TV were effective deterrents we rarely had to use.
When I see kids (who don’t have medical issues like autism or something like that) misbehaving in public, it’s almost invariably the parents sitting there, with that sing-song syruppy voice trying to plead with them to behave. Wrong. You set up and establish firm boundaries. You don’t set out to be your kids’ “friend.” You are their parent, their pack leader. They won’t follow you if you don’t set an example. You don’t sit there with your head in a phone or tablet and then yell when they don’t pay attention to you because you aren’t paying attention to them. Are some kids just going to misbehave? Duh, yes, of course. But too many times, it’s the parents at fault from the beginning.
I used to work at a store selling sewing machines. One day, a woman, her mother, and two young, rambunctious kids, came in. The kids were wild, running around, messing with things, and I was frankly afraid they’d either get hurt or break something. The mother tried a couple of times to tell them to sit, but they ignored her. I finally stopped, said, “Excuse me,” and looked at the two hellions. I pointed at two chairs, and said, “Sit. Now.”
Their eyes got wide, and they sat.
Their mom looked at me, shocked, and said, “How did you do that?” (I wish I was kidding.)
HER mother smacked her on the arm with the backside of her hand and said, “See? I’ve been telling you you aren’t firm enough with them!”
I know I risked pissing off the customer, but I was genuinely afraid they were going to get hurt. Yes, I stepped in and said something. But both that mother and those kids learned a valuable lesson that day. How you get kids to behave is by setting examples and leading, not with fear or pain. Like said, I know damn well there are plenty of examples of kids who that won’t work with. Whatever. I know it would work far more often than people want to believe, but it means a parent doing hard WORK long-term, and not taking an easy out of a swat on the ass that doesn’t work.
January 5, 2014 — 10:59 AM
Deanne says:
Thank you again for speaking out. I had a childhood similar to that described in a comment above: when my father entered a room, talking stopped, for fear that something we said would trigger his anger. He and I talked about it a few years ago, when he apologized for being “too strict” with us, and I heard how hurt he was that we were excluding him.
It was the same old story; his mother told me once that we really weren’t punished anywhere near to what he suffered, and even worse was how his father was treated. One of the reasons I decided not to have children was my fear that I would continue the pattern.
January 5, 2014 — 11:01 AM
J.D. Rhoades (@JD_Rhoades) says:
Far too many of the people who’ll tell you ‘I was spanked, and I’m fine” really aren’t.
I’m part of, I think, the last generation who saw corporal punishment in schools. I saw it turn into raw sadism, where certain teachers would get downright ingenious in constructing paddles that would hurt worse, e.g,. by drilling holes in them to cut down wind resistance, or constructing them out of flexible leather, like a broad flat whip. When you get to the point where you’re figuring “how can I make this hurt MORE,” you’re into some really sick territory. And this was not only sanctioned, but encouraged.
And, as I have observed before, that generation in the one running the world right now. Yeah. Things are really great, thanks to all those people who were beaten to compel obedience.
January 5, 2014 — 11:02 AM
amyskennedy says:
This should be made into a pamphlet and distributed the second anyone becomes a parent, and every year after as a reminder. Sometimes we forget.
January 5, 2014 — 11:05 AM
DJE says:
There’s gotta be a way people who want to be spanked can make money outta this as surrogates.
January 5, 2014 — 11:15 AM
christophergronlund says:
The best form of discipline is pointing to the air intake vent of a home’s HVAC system and saying, “Behave, or the Justice Monkey will come down from there and teach you a lesson in a rather wicked manner.” (It helps to show the child any illustration from Poe’s “Murders in the Rue Morgue” to put into their minds an image of what the Justice Monkey looks like. Watch them behave every time the heat or air conditioner kicks on. (This is probably why I don’t have kids…))
Okay, I had my serious say in the first post about spanking and will always maintain that hitting another living thing to produce results you want isn’t the best way to go. Physical and mental abuse is so not cool!
(Now I need to go convince my wife to let me move the office out of the room with the air intake vent ’cause it now scares me…)
January 5, 2014 — 11:16 AM
Doreen Queen says:
Wow. I just went back and read the comments that were left after your earlier posting, and people are crazy. I like that many of the responders supported your view and I still am amazed at those who responded negatively – especially those who asked for facts/statistics and then complained about what he found when he Googled “results of spanking.”
I don’t have much to add to the debate other than to applaud you for bringing up such a controversial issue. My ex and I had determined never to spank our children until we actually were faced with one of our own, and I have to admit, despite my best intentions, I wound up spanking my son – but only when he was in a life-threatening situation (and that doesn’t make it right). He loved to run into the street – he loved to run, period. He was an extremely active child – climbing, running, testing limits wherever he could. We tried time-outs, we tried reasoning, we tried leashing the boy when we went outside – nothing worked. We finally broke down and spanked his bottom whenever his feet touched blacktop without his hand holding one of ours. I’m not proud of it; in fact, I’m deeply ashamed of it. But nothing else worked. And after about three spankings, he stopped running into traffic.
What I’d also like to bring up is that you don’t have to hit to abuse children. My father never hit me or my siblings, but we were terrified of him still the same. Even today, at nearly 50 years old, when I’m asked whether I was abused as a child, I always deny it, but in reality, his rages were probably more terrifying than if he’d actually hit us. I remember at age 16, sitting at the table eating a bowl of chili while my father screamed and frothed and threw dishes across the room. He never aimed them at me, but I got the message that he wasn’t happy. Did that make me respect him more? Absolutely not. Did he get his way? Nope, no how, no way. I was a passive little creature, but passively aggressive when I could be. “Accidentally” missing a deadline for a college application was just as effective as actually telling the man “no, I don’t want to go there.”
I’m ashamed that I actually hit the child that I carried in my body for nine months, but I’m more ashamed of the fact that often at 3am in the morning, I screamed at him to go to sleep. I’m ashamed that I yelled at an infant whose tummy was hurting because he had colic and I was 19, running on about 2 hours of sleep in 96 hours whose own mommy was 300 miles away. I yelled because I had no other tools in my toolbox – I’d never seen “healthy” parenting, I was tired, my child never slept for more than 90 minutes at a time and screamed for hours when he was awake. I yelled when he was three months old and I yelled again when he was 13 and the police caught him roaming around the neighborhood at 3am because he couldn’t sleep. I hate the fact that I was probably a rage-aholic myself during his formative years and that I didn’t get the help that I so desperately needed until he was a teenager.
My son currently is serving his sixth year in prison at a work release center. The baby boy that I spanked because he stepped on blacktop is a meth addict who stole cars to support his habit. I don’t believe that spanking him probably 5 times in his lifetime led to his problems, but I do believe that my raging at him during his childhood probably didn’t help. And I’m more ashamed of the screaming than I am of the spanking.
January 5, 2014 — 11:16 AM
ConstantCupcake says:
There are studies showing that spanking has a correlation with aggression, studies showing that the more a kid is spanked the lower their IQ is, studies showing that kids who are spanked have poorer impulse control, studies showing that kids who are spanked are more likely to come from less educated, poorer households, and as far as I can find no studies showing that kids who are spanked are in any way more respectful or well adjusted than kids who are not. In fact the only study that comes close is the Gunroe study which was not accepted by any journal and therefore not peer-reviewed. In academic speak that makes it more of a musing than anything one might base their decisions on.
Now obviously none of these studies are definitive, and the exact correlations have yet to be determined. Still given the body of evidence we have, why anyone would spank their children considering the strong possibility that there are negative consequences/causes and no positive effects… well it’s completely beyond me.
I believe in kindness in all things. My Husband (who holds a masters in education psychology and is working towards a doctorate in education) always points out that from a behaviorist and child development standpoint spanking is a staggeringly ineffective modification tool. So why would I use it when compassion and explanation can be used to much greater effect and will raise children who think for themselves rather than who fear a whooping? Which is the better lesson? That you shouldn’t do something because it isn’t kind/smart/safe and you now understand on a cognitive level why not to do it? Or that you shouldn’t do it because if you do your parents might hit you? Seems to me that second lesson doesn’t teach you not to do something, but teaches you not to get caught.
Something further to keep in mind. Mandatory reporters (Teachers, social workers, psychologists etc etc) are required by law to report you if they see you striking your child. This may seem extreme to you but mandatory reporters are required not to judge what they see but report. To err on the side of caution. It’s the job of protective services to then determine whether abuse is happening. Just fyi for the next time you’re thinking of physically discipling your child in public.
January 5, 2014 — 11:20 AM
rrhaywood says:
An exceptionally well thought out blog post in response to a number of comments that were, at best, stuck in a previous way of thinking that no longer applies. We have to progress as a society, we have to look at what we, as humanity, did and where we went wrong, then learn from it and do better in the future.
I have been in law enforcement for fifteen years, I am a parent, an uncle, a godfather, a writer of a bestselling (and very violent) horror series, I own and breed German Shepherd Dogs. From all of these life experiences I can put my hand on my heart and say corporal punishment towards children is flawed beyond doubt. Behaviour breeds behaviour. What we do as adults is copied, emulated and done by the younger minds around us.
I’m not Christian or from any religion really, but I do believe that all religions look toward love as being the concept by which we should live our lives.
I don’t hit my dogs. I train them so they don’t need to be struck. I often “felt” like I wanted to use force against my child and my dogs but that is anger, and any physical aggression carried out as a result of anger is wrong, it is a lack of control, a loss of control.
I was struck as a child and hated my father for it, I also had resentment towards my mother for not stopping him, and those issues are carried through your life as an adult.
We are too soft on children in modern society, but that does not mean we need to use force. We need to teach manners, good grace, humility and the merits of hard work and above all – politeness. If children step outside of the boundaries then they need to be guided back inside and there are a million different ways of educating a child rather than smashing it about.
Well said Mr Wendig.
RR Haywood
January 5, 2014 — 11:21 AM
Deanne says:
Were I not dedicated to working with rescued dogs, I would ask for your contact details so that I could inquire about upcoming litters when I have room for a new furry friend. Thank you for treating your dogs the way all humans and animals should be treated.
January 5, 2014 — 11:28 AM
Mitchell Willie says:
Spanking is a quick-fix; it is in no way the ultimate solution to parenting, because “…or I’ll spank you” isn’t a lasting or effective solution to long-term issues like mindfulness or social behavior. Those must be taught in ways that the child understands the /actual/ consequences of their behavior, and not a parentally-imposed punishment because of their behavior.
That said, I fully believe it has its place. There are instances where you don’t have time to express a full, detailed explanation of why your child shouldn’t stick a fork in the electrical outlet or climb into the stranger’s van while you’re paying for your coffee, or whatever. In those cases, a quick swat gets attention faster than a “oh, honey, don’t…”, so long as its purpose is to get attention through shock value and not to physically harm the child in any way that lasts more than an eyeblink. After that, when things have calmed down, you should explain to the child /why/ they were spanked, why their behavior was dangerous/inappropriate, and what they can do next time to ensure their own safety, rather than relying on a mother and father who are, ultimately, mortal and cannot watch out for them their 24/7 their entire lives.
January 5, 2014 — 11:22 AM
Dani says:
I think this is the most common argument I’ve heard in favor of spanking. People say “it’s okay as long as you never ever do it in anger or to punish, but only when the child is in danger.” But it’s far more effective to just pull them out of danger and then, when things have calmed down, explain to them why their behavior was dangerous/inappropriate and what they can do next time to ensure their own sanity.
Before their brains have developed enough to understand danger, and cause and effect, spanking will do nothing to teach them “what you did was dangerous.” And neither will anything else. All we can do at that point is physically remove them from the situation.
After their brains have developed enough to understand danger, and cause and effect, spanking won’t give them any better sense of danger than explaining to them about getting run over, burnt, etc. will. Most little kids are pretty easily shocked and impressed by learning about new dangers. And it’s far easier for most kids to understand the connection between running into the street and getting run over than to understand the connection between running into the street and getting hit, because there’s no logical connection between the latter.
January 5, 2014 — 12:04 PM
Mitchell Willie says:
That’s actually my point. I don’t believe spanking as a punishment works, and I don’t believe spanking as a teaching tool works. I do, however, believe that spanking grabs the attention like little else, which is occasionally useful as a gateway to an actually effective punishment or teaching tool. If done “properly” (as properly as such a thing can be), that is.
January 5, 2014 — 12:22 PM
Dani says:
No, but my point is that spanking is a harmful way to grab the attention, even when done “properly”, and there are plenty of ways to get their attention that aren’t harmful.
January 5, 2014 — 12:28 PM
mckkenzie says:
But when you’re talking about a small child, a sudden and very loudly shouted “NO!” or “STOP!” will stop them in their street-bound tracks provided you don’t yell like that on a regular basis. I used this once in a while in danger situations and it worked perfectly. The key here, of course, is that if you scream all the time they won’t be shocked enough by it to stop. If you’re reasonable the majority of the time, your child has a “What the hell??!” reaction and freezes. And if you’re close enough to hit the kid, why do you need to get their attention at all? Just pull them the heck off the curb and head inside for a stern lecture on cars.
January 5, 2014 — 12:31 PM
Jenna says:
My family moved from California to Texas in the late 70s, when I was about seven or eight, and our elementary school had corporal punishment. The first time I heard of a student getting paddled was a boy in my class who was caught stealing from the book fair. His face after the paddling, as well as the sight of my teacher walking down the hall with the paddle (with holes drilled in it) in her hand are my two clearest memories of that school.
Thankfully, my family moved back to California after two years. As much of a mess as our school district was (and it really was–just as an example, the superintendent of schools when I graduated was later found not only to have the Ph.D in education he claimed to have, but he’d attended the school he claimed to have it from) at least punishment never involved hitting.
January 5, 2014 — 11:30 AM
Sarah Herlong says:
Yeah I agree with you wholeheartedly. My parents spanked us until we cried and until we stopped with a wooden spoon or a belt. Just yesterday my elderly mother was wondering whether to spank the dog when it pooped in the hall. I told her no, the dog won’t understand.Think of the dog as a three year old child…and then I remembered that she would spank a three year old child too. It gave me the creeps. My mother was shocked when I told her the clearest memories I have of my childhood were the spankings I got. But you got so few she said. As if that mattered.
January 5, 2014 — 11:33 AM
terribleminds says:
One of my clearest, earliest memories is of a paddling with a paint stirrer.
January 5, 2014 — 11:36 AM
Jennifer says:
I never really thought about it before, but all of my strongest early memories are of being hit, or of watching my brother get hit, or of trying to figure out how not to get hit.
January 5, 2014 — 12:08 PM
Lisa Pedersen says:
Thank you, Chuck.
January 5, 2014 — 11:49 AM
chulaslim says:
When I was a grade school student in Cincinnati, back in the fifties, paddling by school officials was a common occurrence. They employed a large flat paddle about an inch thick to deliver the blows.
I remember an occasion during the phys-ed class in which I was on the receiving end of such punishment. We, (the male students) were engaged in a game and one of the boys, a kid named “Harry Hill” made an illegal move. I yelled out, “Hey Hill, that’s cheating!”
The phys-ed teacher (a male) grabbed me by the arm and dragged me into his office. He got out the paddle and informed me he was about to deliver corporal punishment for cursing in his class. When I protested and asked him why, he said I used the word “hell” in his class, as in, “Hell Hill that’s cheating!” Regardless of how much I protested my innocence, he went ahead and gave me two swaps on the ass with the paddle.
Did I learn anything from the experience? Well, yes. I learned that some adults were mindless, cretinous worms and not worthy of respect.
Most of the boys at that school endured their swaps with pride. For a few moments of pain they’d gotten way with thumbing their nose at the school system. Those boys continued to do so until they left for high school or dropped out.
I remember, just before the swat, while anticipating it, feeling a tingling sensation at the base of my spine, right where our genetic ancestors sported tails. I also felt the same sensation when, as a kid, committing some kind of transgression and fearing that God would punish me for it. It was the exact same tingling in both cases.
As an adult you may have felt the same tingling in your lower spine when you see flashing lights at the rear of your car and you know a cop is about to pull you over because you’ve been speeding.
I have no empirical evidence to support my assertion, but I’m convinced it’s the same physical reaction that causes a dog to curl it’s tail under it’s legs when it’s being chastised by a human.
Since it seems to be genetic, it may account for the unreasoning reactions to your previous blog post especially among fundamentalist Christians.
January 5, 2014 — 12:00 PM
Monique says:
I have to admit, I was one of your followers who almost didn’t click on this post after the last comments section. I’m an avid fan of your books and adore your blogs focused on writing and craft. And I admire your courage for posting on such a controversial subject as well as your passion for said subject. Hell, I even agree with your view of spanking. However, some of the responses and comments on the last blog regarding spanking were so hateful and disrespectful–the “fuck you” responses given from many people on all sides, the name calling, on and on–I just didn’t want to participate in a forum where those types of responses held any weight. We’re all so much smarter than that. I admit, I was saddened by the whole thing and left the posting wondering if I’d clicked on the wrong blog and if I’d ever return. However, after reading this post, the plethora of scientific articles backing your opinion, the “less ragey” tone of the blog–and so far respectful comments–I’m glad I did! Thank you for returning to the subject that seemed to cause so much strife, and thank you for the abundance of information! Happy Sunday and Happy Writing.
January 5, 2014 — 12:02 PM
Diane says:
Whether or not I agree, I thank you for your succinct and thoughtful commentary.
January 5, 2014 — 12:06 PM
Anthony Elmore says:
I was spanked and my parents later told me they regretted it and apologized for being rough with me. In comparison to how my other relatives raised their children, they were lightweights. I’ve seen my cousin belt whipped with until he bled. He’s a real nice guy when he’s not on a meth fueled tear. Actually, no, he’s an utter bastard when he’s sober. Thankfully, he never had kids.
Most of my discipline issues were school related. I was well behaved but performed badly in school. This was a 1970’s Christian school where Born-Again-Filled-With-The-Holy-Ghost-Bible-Believing Christians didn’t have mental illnesses or learning disabilities. Kids who performed poorly in their minority-free citadel or right learnin’ were either lazy or were in Satan’s grasp. Sometimes you have to pry the devils scaly finger with a 1″ thick Paddle of Righteousness. I failed 6th grade, my please of “The words are floating and I can’t keep them straight” went unheeded. Apply Paddle of Righteousness, Repeat.
My parents, working with the limited information allowed by the Church, went along like good Soviets.
Did it fuck me up? Recovering alcoholic. Depression. Rage. Abusive behavior. Failed college twice. I constantly feel cheated, as if those paddle thumpers stole many opportunities by not recognizing my problems. Instead, my behavior was a symptom of a godless culture under the lure of the Beatles, All in the Family and ‘fake’ Christians.
I didn’t get better, but I got stronger, smarter. I overcame my fears of failure and got into web programming and am recently trying to get two complete YA books published. I’ve bent the iron bars of my cage of self-loathing, but I’m still trying to wriggle out of the cell.
They they didn’t beat the devil from me, but created one molded by abuse, self hate and ignorance. It still sits on my shoulder, but I’ve just learned to ignore its counsel.
January 5, 2014 — 12:06 PM
Josee says:
Thanks for sharing Anthony. Your story rings many bells in my ears.
January 5, 2014 — 12:53 PM
DJE says:
Actually, now that I think about it, I don’t even like the word “spanking”.
I was “spanked” as a child. Only a few times. But I was also struck with a belt a few times. Once, I was kicked. Once, I had a vinyl record smashed over my head. Several times I was violently shaken.
At no time since has my mind conjured up a special distinction for the “spanking”. It was a physical assault, just like the rest of it. It was terrifying, just like the rest of it. When I look back at it all now, it’s all the same. Which, by the way, is exactly how I regarded it as a child.
Calling it “spanking” is like trying to hide from what it actually is. “Oh, I wouldn’t hit my kid. I just *spank* them.”
Take it from me, your kid doesn’t see the difference.
January 5, 2014 — 12:10 PM
Dani says:
Exactly.
January 5, 2014 — 12:30 PM
rhcwilliams says:
Chuck, I really enjoy your blog, but have never commented until now. You were right in your previous post and you’re right again with this one. There’s no need to try to be logical and back it up with research for those on the other side; if you were hit as a child you just know. You remember. It’s impossible to hit a child when emotions are high and not veer over the line. There was a news story last year in which Gladys Knight commented about Paris Jackson being disrespectful to her aunt, Janet Jackson, to the effect that if that child had said such a thing to me, she wouldn’t have any teeth left. Even though I love her music, I stopped listening to Gladys Knight’s songs. Not a joke to some of us. Thanks for standing up.
January 5, 2014 — 12:13 PM
MJ says:
My mother hit me repeatedly out of sheer rage when I was a child. ‘A jolly good walloping,’ she called it. She never hit us on a Sunday (the Lord’s day, when we were told to count our blessings) nor when my father was home. He is dead now and if I could have one more minute with him I would ask this: ‘How could you not have known? And if you knew, why did you not protect us from her?’ I am 50 now and my mother is almost 80 and still when I look in her face I see the terrifying bully inside her. The rage I feel towards her makes me want to throw up. For my 50th birthday she had framed 6 photos of me growing up. I shredded 5 of them because my adult self couldn’t bear to see the pain and bewilderment behind that little girl’s smile. I kept one to remind me of the brave little girl who survived her. It turned me into someone who couldn’t bear to see my own children in pain.
January 5, 2014 — 12:17 PM
Dani says:
What I think is the most compelling argument against spanking is: How can we do something to a child that, when you do it to an adult, is super-sexualized? This doesn’t seem like a Supremely Bad Idea to anyone else? I’ve never heard anybody else make that argument, that I can think of. The connection became clear to me when my son was in preschool, and his mom would talk openly in front of him about spanking as a sexual thing (which already is covert sexual abuse – exposing small children to adult sexuality in that way). And other adults would talk about whether or not to spank children, also where he and other kids could hear them. It makes my skin crawl now.
And it’s not that I think adults are spanking their children with sexual abuse aforethought – although I know some do. But I bet if I googled “spanking is sexual abuse” someone will have made this argument a lot more coherently than I am. It’s “part of their swimsuit area”, and we’re proposing to hurt it, in a way that soon they will discover is uber-sexualized. BAD IDEA.
January 5, 2014 — 12:24 PM
Smoph says:
Dani, I think interpreting an action that is sexualised in adults and making a punishment for children is not consistent thinking. In a similar vein, I think it is like comparing breasts as a natural feeding organ and as part of adult sexual time… I am not at all calling into question your feeling that talking about it in front of your son was inappropriate.
Incidentally, I think that parents talking it through can help each other to improve their parenting techniques. Stigimatizing what is often an action parents regret can stop the conversation and prevent learning and growth.
January 5, 2014 — 6:27 PM
Dani says:
But breastfeeding is very different from anything that adults do sexually. (Other than those adults who are into infantilization, which kind of proves that point.) Spanking is the only thing I can think of that is a sexual act for adults which is also performed on children… I mean, the only thing that is supposed to carry different meaning when you do it to a child.
It’s also a concern because that area is an erogenous zone. Grabbing, patting, fondling, or smacking an adult’s ass is considered to be sexual harassment. Sure, kids haven’t sexually matured and hopefully have no idea about that stuff or about anal sex. But if lack of sexual knowledge was the deciding factor in whether something was inappropriate or damaging, there would be no such thing as sexual abuse at all.
January 5, 2014 — 6:52 PM
Smoph says:
I am not sure that breastfeeding and n!ppl3 play (sorry, trying not get the blog highlighted as too adult) are entirely different, except for the context in which they occur and the function they serve. Infantilisation is at the extreme of sexual behaviours, and I don’t know of a link to spanking myself.
Children play with themselves as part of exploring their bodies and that’s not an adult act. It’s learning about their bodies and sensations.
We as adults interpret it in one way, due to our experiences. But children do experience it differently, without our connotations. Interpreting it by our adult standards is not the same.
Sexual abuse is another argument/fringe argument to this one, and horrific. I don’t believe comparing spanking (specifically not referring here to beating with tools, about the head, to the point of welting and blood) that way is constructive for change, just diluting the argument. I am also not arguing that beating children is not as damaging.
January 7, 2014 — 12:13 AM
Kleedrac says:
I’ve given this issue a lot of thought and I think the reason you see such a division is twofold. For one thing there is a multiverse of a gap between people who are parents and people who are not parents. Those of us who don’t have kids see America’s kids getting more and more spoiled. They throw tantrums that would have seen most kids beaten back when I was a lad and such things were socially acceptable. What’s worse, society has changed its mind in the intervening generation so physical punishment’s aren’t OK but has yet to find a solution to replace it! I’m neither naive nor get-into-others-business enough to suggest an alternative or that we backtrack. But say what you will, spankings worked! They had a negative long-term impact, but the short term results can’t be argued against! And this current generation of parents has nothing to combat it. Check twitter sometime for “Christmas ruined” and you’ll see the long-term effects that removing one tool without replacing another can have. And for the parents trying to raise children in the current society I feel naught but pity. I don’t know how I’d do it. What can be done? You can’t hit them but they can ignore anything else.
January 5, 2014 — 12:29 PM
terribleminds says:
You can completely argue against those results unless those results have data to back them up.
January 5, 2014 — 12:33 PM
ConstantCupcake says:
There are actually loads of suggestions on how to discipline without spanking. Go ahead and google “discipline without spanking” and you’ll see pages and pages of suggestions.
And in fact educational psychology suggests that positive reinforcement is loads more effective and long term than negative. In other words, teaching your child to be good is better than punishing your child when they’re bad. The biggest key with anything though is consistency, which is where I think a lot of parents have trouble.
Here’s just a few links to suggestions for what to do rather than spank:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/claire-mccarthy-md/discipline-without-spanking_b_1646923.html
http://www.austinchildguidance.org/for-parents/parenting-articles-tips/disciplining-children-without-spanking/
January 5, 2014 — 12:38 PM
mckkenzie says:
Who says nothing has replaced it? As I mentioned in the last round, if my kids threw a tantrum they knew there would be consequences. Now that they’re teens, they know the same thing. As parents, we have control over just about everything they get in life whether it be access to TV or getting a ride to a friend’s house. There are literally hundreds of ways to give consequences that will mean something to your kid. Positive reinforcement is also a wonderful thing. Do what you should and your pleased parents will say yes when you ask to be driven to the movies next week. Screw up and don’t bother asking because you’ll be grounded. Simple. Not easy, not at all, but simple. What I think you’re failing to see is that it may not be a lack of spanking, but a lack of sticking to consequences that turns kids into little monsters.
Example of one that actually was easy — my kids tend to leave their “playroom” a mess. Sometimes reminders don’t work because everyone is busy and they forget. Last week, my husband told them calmly and reasonably that if he saw the same mess in there when he left for work he’d be bringing the Xbox cable to work with him. Result – a pristine playroom with no yelling, no hitting, nothing but our kids knowing perfectly well that there would be no Xbox available if they didn’t do what they should. It’s the parents who threaten to take away an activity and then never actually do it who have ruined Christmases.
Violence isn’t necessary. Firmness and a willingness to inconvenience yourself to impose a consequence is.
January 5, 2014 — 1:04 PM
Tymber Dalton says:
@Kleedrac – The anecdotal evidence of all of us who’ve not only successfully raised children without spanking them, but countless animal trainers who use positive reinforcement with operant conditioning, would prove you sadly and completely wrong. That’s not counting the studies that prove you wrong. It’s more a statement about the laziness of the parents and their failure to do the hard work necessary to successfully parent their children than it is a statement of the children themselves. And “magic thinking” that spanking is a cure isn’t going to change the statistics or the facts.
January 5, 2014 — 1:51 PM
Jen Dornan-Fish says:
I would really like to address the notion that kids have somehow become more spoiled. There are 2 things happening.
1. Kids have always had tantrums because they literally do not have the neurological ability to stop themselves. I have lived all over the world and have yet to see a society where kids under 3 or 4 don’t occasionally just lose their shit and act like total assholes. The big difference I’ve seen is how everyone handles it. In many places I’ve lived, there is no wildly-privileged expectation that people can somehow live in a child-free environment, so they just don’t freak out about that kind of stuff. They’re used to it, because it is NORMAL for little humans to go apeshit.
The difference now is that those kids are out of the house a lot more often so random, childless people are seeing more kids being jerks. In the 50s and 60s and even into the 70s and 80s, kids were just not really welcome in the public sphere. There was a very strong expectation that, until they were old enough for their executive function to do things like prevent public tantrums, kids were just kept around home. This meant that a parent had to be home with them (i.e. mom). That primary caregivers are saying “screw this, me kids and I are going out in public” is a GOOD thing (and a feminist issue).
2. Indeed, it is entirely possible to prevent young kids from tantruming. It’s called fear and intimidation. Those people with perfectly behaved children are either the luckiest parents alive to have gotten that one rare child who is inhumanly mellow, or (more likely) they have somehow made their child so afraid of them that they don’t ever act out.
I’m not saying that there aren’t issues with the way American children are being raised, but most of the kinds of behavior that people use to describe “good children” (especially very young kids) is actually a sign that there is something amiss in that family.
Also, as others have pointed out, there is solid, comprehensive evidence that providing compassionate, consistent, firm, and communicative boundaries for children, while a long term process, actually produces socially minded, kind, empathetic, individuals. That they might have a few more tantrums during the process seems like something we could all just deal with.
January 5, 2014 — 6:52 PM
mckkenzie says:
Hmmm, can’t totally agree with you, Jen depending on what age we’re talking about. In my experience, most tantrums are caused by frustration so yeah, when they’re teeny and preverbal you can’t punish them for freaking out. But by the time they’re talking and communicating reasonably (like the age of 3 or 4) tantrums are just bad behavior and they can learn to use their words instead of screaming and flailing. Reasonably explaining that we will be leaving the zoo so nobody gets to visit the bears if they don’t get it together is perfectly understandable to kids by that age and tantrums _can_ be stopped in public or elsewhere without anybody being afraid. Not that this always works of course and our kids did have some epic freakouts in public, but I can’t agree that lack of tantrums is a sign of trouble in a home.
January 5, 2014 — 8:24 PM
capitola54 says:
Excellent post. Thank you for sharing these points and doing so in a clear, thoughtful manner. I hope some of your readers are prompted to think before they defend spanking–or beating–any child.
January 5, 2014 — 12:34 PM
Jen Donohue says:
Not having a child, I’m glad you included the dog comment. My dog, to my knowledge, has never learned anything from being hit. She has learned from teaching, motivation, and positive reinforcement. If I can teach a dog to do the things I’ve taught my dog, I can teach a child without hitting him/her. It’s possible. Really truly. To live without ever hitting anybody. God knows it’s hard sometimes….
January 5, 2014 — 12:41 PM
Lizzy's Dark Fiction says:
The last post regarding spanking nearly made me unsubscibe and never visit your page again. Not because I’m pro-spanking, but because I can’t tolerate people telling me how to raise my kids. I subscribe to your blog for writing related blog posts, not one-sided parenting advice.
Thank you for at least providing articles supporting your anti-spanking stance in this post. Though, I still don’t care to hear about parenting advice on your blog, at least this a less aggressive approach.
I firmly believe that a parent has the right to raise their kid however they want — minus outright abusing them. There are way worse ways a parents can punish their kids than by hitting them with a belt or hand. The scars on my childhood are not from a well-deserved spanking. In fact, the only spanking that I had a problem with was the one time that I was blamed for my sister’s wrong-doing. It bothers me to this day NOT because I was spanked but because I didn’t deserve ANY punishment.
You are lucky that your child responds well without the need to physically get his/her attention. I’ve purposely let my kid get minor injuries because unless he gets hurt, he doesn’t want to listen to warnings. Fact is the only way he stopped trying to touch the stove is when associated pain with the danger. He burnt his fingers on the rack one day and hasn’t touched it since. He knows that it is “hot”. He’s also misstepped off the couch a few times and banged his head on the coffee table — though he still tries to jump crazily on that. Not quite as recklessly as before though.
Will I spank my kid? Yes, if I feel that it is necessary. If he runs out into the road, I’ll hit him on the butt. I’d rather he learn from the hand than from being hit by a car. Now he’ll yell at the dog for going on the road but he, himself, won’t leave the sidewalk. If he badmouths me, I won’t hit him. The offense isn’t severe enough to warrant me to do so. That will warrant time in the corner or me taking away his favorite toys. But, I will most definitely do whatever is necessary to teach him to stay away from dangerous situations. I love him enough to not care whether he’ll hate me later for keeping his ass alive.
January 5, 2014 — 1:14 PM
Gareth Skarka says:
“I’ve purposely let my kid get minor injuries because unless he gets hurt, he doesn’t want to listen to warnings.”
Holy shit.
January 5, 2014 — 2:05 PM
Lizzy's Dark Fiction says:
Which I explained with the stove incident….
January 5, 2014 — 2:14 PM
Gareth Skarka says:
Rather than rant at you, I’m going to attempt to genuinely talk to you:
Look at the reaction this has gotten. There’s a reason for that — this is horrific behavior. You may not understand that. I beg you to take a step back and think about it — you have just admitted in a public forum that you purposefully allow your child to be burned, hit their head on the coffee table — either of which could result in serious injury (and thank god it didn’t). You wave this off as if it’s no big deal.
The shock that people are expressing here should tell you something. Please, go get help.
January 5, 2014 — 2:52 PM
Mitchell Willie says:
To be fair, this is his blog. If he were a corporate entity, or representing a group, then it’d be different. He’s not, though. It’s his personal blog, and whether or not we agree with him (I don’t, for example), he’s free to post whatever he feels like posting.
You, as an adult, have the option of ignoring his non-writing posts, as they are generally clearly marked. If this solution doesn’t do it for you, I’m sure you can divine the alternative without the need for me to spell out t-h-e-r-e-s-t-h-e-d-o-o-r.
<3
January 5, 2014 — 2:15 PM
Monique says:
You’re entirely correct. And I’m sure Mr. Wendig understood that he’d both lose and gain followers for his viewpoint–that’s the nature of the beast when you post on controversial topics. And even though I agreed with his perspective in the first post, and now, I was hesitant to come back. I think this was due to the way he reacted to a follower who disagreed with him–“Fuck you”. The followers comments that were shown seemed to voice their disagreement in a respectful manner so maybe there were others that were completely inappropriate and hateful that had to be deleted. I don’t know and certainly hope not. But I don’t think anyone on either side of an agreement should be treated disrespectfully. Disrespect breeds disrespect. And it’s certainly his blog, and his right to respond however he chooses, but again, I put the onus of responsibility to set the example on the blog poster. That response sort of cracked the image I had of the man behind this blog. I revel in his incredibly witty and vulgar postings on writing–the man knows his shit–and his fiction is incredible! And, I guess, I expected that same wit and vulgar eloquence (maybe an oxymoron but I’m using it anyway) in his responses to those who disagree. Today’s succinct post was the reaction I’d expect. Now, I have no dillusions that should one fan unfollow his blog or never buy another book of his again would they be missed. But my perception of the image was… tainted. Someone who posts on controversial topics should be able to handle those who disagree with him more respectfully–like with today’s post. Then again, I also understand that this is an emotional topic so… Clearly, from the comments, he’s changed some people’s perspectives on spanking, and I think that’s great and more than likely his intention with the post. While that commenter’s mind might have never been changed, I can guarantee the response of “fuck you” did more harm than good. Again, kudos to today’s post and I’m looking forward to more writing wisdom from Terrible Minds and the incomparable Mr. Wendig!
January 5, 2014 — 2:57 PM
Georgia says:
Well, at least he didn’t spank them.
January 13, 2014 — 9:32 AM
terribleminds says:
“You are lucky that your child responds well without the need to physically get his/her attention. I’ve purposely let my kid get minor injuries because unless he gets hurt, he doesn’t want to listen to warnings. Fact is the only way he stopped trying to touch the stove is when associated pain with the danger. He burnt his fingers on the rack one day and hasn’t touched it since. He knows that it is “hot”. He’s also misstepped off the couch a few times and banged his head on the coffee table — though he still tries to jump crazily on that. Not quite as recklessly as before though.”
I’m sorry, you purposefully let your kid burn himself?
What is wrong with you?
That’s not okay.
January 5, 2014 — 2:21 PM
Lizzy's Dark Fiction says:
Please just delete all my comments.
January 5, 2014 — 2:36 PM
DJE says:
“The scars on my childhood are not from a well-deserved spanking.”
Given how you’ve reacted to this post, the misplaced expectations you appear to have about this blog, and the tone of your comment… I’d say you might want to re-evaluate your own scars.
January 5, 2014 — 2:34 PM
Wendy Christopher says:
Thank you so much for diving into these murky waters with bravery again, Chuck – particularly after last time. I was one of those who left a comment previously, but when I read through some of the vitriolic and angry rants left by some individuals I felt nothing but despair at what our world had become. I was a little worried about what I’d find in response to this post too – but so far there at least seems to be an absence of the self-righteous, frothing-mouthed type that peed all over the comments section of the previous post.
And last time, when my seven-year-old boy saw me sitting in front of my computer staring at those awful comments with tears in my eyes, he put his little arms around me and said “Don’t be sad mummy – let me cuddle you until you feel better.”
And that alone made me so damn glad I’ve never spanked him.
January 5, 2014 — 1:15 PM
Josee says:
As a kid, I was hyperactive, loud and a bit of a tornado. When I made sudden moves near my dad, he would often sink his head in his neck and put his arm up. I used to laugh at his reactions. When I got older, I found out the real reason: my grandfather hit him often in the back of the head. That was his form of “spanking”, along with other corporal punishment. It broke my heart to see a grown man have an instinctive reaction to protect himself whenever someone made a sudden gesture around or behind him. Did my dad spank us? Of course he did. Not often, and I seriously don’t remember much – my sister remembers more. Did I spank my kids when they were stuck in a whirlwind of tantrum? Yup, I did. Do I regret it? More than anything. Lots of crying in therapy will not change the fact that I did what I had sworn to myself I wouldn’t do. It’s just plain ignorance of a better way to handle it.
I’m hopefully the last of the string of emotionally unstable, frustration-driven, low self-esteem academic failures I come from. Both my kids were diagnosed with ADHD, and so was I earlier this year. Now that I know about it, I’m pretty sure my dad had ADHD. Sometimes there’s a reason for your kid’s behaviour, and it’s not bad intentions, it’s not malice and it’s not necessarily done to aggravate you. My dad was hit because he didn’t behave like his Catholic parents wanted him to. I was hit because I couldn’t calm down at bedtime. And so on and so on…
I believe my kids will grow to be well-rounded, stable and happy adults. They’re great teens now. After thousands of dollars of therapy, different doctors, different depression and anxiety meds, and now finally a proper diagnosis and help with my ADHD, I hope I succeeded in breaking the cycle.
But when I get really angry at my son, he still puts three or four feet between us because he’s afraid of me. Because deep inside somewhere, he remembers his mom hurting him physically. And it just breaks my heart. It’s my cross to bear. If I could make it up to him, I would in a flash. I can’t. He’ll always remember.
One thing I learned: the parent is the responsible person. The kid is not. If the parent doesn’t know a better way of handling things, it’s the parent’s responsibility to find another way: reading, therapy, anything. Because it’s not the kid’s fault. And I believe I didn’t have children so I could hit them. It was to love them.
January 5, 2014 — 1:20 PM
Betsy says:
I never spanked my daughters, and I wasn’t spanked myself. But my parents did spank my brothers sometimes (back in the 60’s). I wonder if boys are more likely to be spanked? I remember in elementary school it was always the boys who got sent to the Principal’s office. They were the ones who couldn’t seem to stop themselves from crossing certain lines. I don’t mean to criticize boys by saying this. What I mean is that I think certain parenting techniques work differently according to personality and maybe to some degree by gender. For instance, something I read in the book The Male Brain (a book about the male brain, written with female readers in mind) stayed with me. When a mother is scared that her child will get hurt and tells the child to stop, girls respond to mom’s tone of voice and stop. Boys don’t notice the tone of voice and continue to do whatever it was that they were doing. I personally know a mom who REALLY struggled with how to get her sons to listen to her when they were 3 and 4 years old. Her oldest child was a daughter, and she kept expecting the boys to respond the way her daughter had.
I’ve also observed that children who are very athletic tend to act out if they don’t get enough exercise. Some little kids really need A LOT of time running around–maybe 3 hours a day. If they get it, then they’re mellow the rest of the time. If they don’t, they can become instigators–they’re trying to make something happen–they don’t know why they’re acting the way they are. One of the best things my mom used to do was to tell my middle brother to go run around the block. I used to think she did that to punish him because it would often happen when he was getting into mischief. I told him once “sorry you had to run around the block,” and he said “I love to run around the block.” That was a revelation to me! He ran track in high school. 🙂
January 5, 2014 — 1:28 PM
Sarah Owings says:
This is great! Thank you for taking this stand, for taking the heat, and for backing up all your points so well. I’m a little freaked myself by how many people came out of the woodwork to so adamantly defend violence against children on your earlier blog post. However, the one and only aspect I think you may have overlooked is how frightened and over-whelmed many parents are by feelings of incompetence, lack of control, embarrassment, shame, etc. which I think makes them lash out both at their children and also anyone that may question their child-rearing practices. People are so unprepared for children most of the time, really really clueless about normal child development, child psychology, etc. and the job is so tough! We really don’t support parents very much in our society either, or make it a priority to educate them so they do have more alternatives in the toolbox. On another note, I too am a dog person, and your comment re: dogs running from people that threaten them is also right on the money as well. I’ve seen many a freaked out dog run right into the street to ESCAPE his screaming, threatening owner. I also worked for 11 years in a Kindergarten and can say without a doubt that the kids that had the hardest time in school were either spanked at home, regularly threatened with various other scary “consequences” for misbehavior, and / or exposed frequently to violent movies they were not developmentally able to handle yet–often a combo of all three. Whereas, the kids that were sheltered from media for the most part, and raised by attentive, compassionate parents that set appropriate, safe, consistent limits when needed usually thrived.
Hey, have you seen this video on how a typically violent, high stress Baboon society was transformed to a thriving, more peaceful one– once many of the hyper-aggressive alpha males died due do TB? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4UMyTnlaMY. Applicable–no? Love the conclusion the scientist draws at the end: if Baboons can transform their whole society in just one generation, what excuse do we humans have?
January 5, 2014 — 1:32 PM
Andrea says:
This is a really interesting couple of posts. My sister and I were spanked a few times as children, but it was enough to burn the memory into my brain. I would definitely say it was a humiliating experience, and I’m fairly certain it’s the reason why I’m so painfully shy today.
I was wondering if I could write about these posts on my blog? I’d link back, of course, and credit you when needed.
January 5, 2014 — 2:03 PM
Mitchell Willie says:
Comments like these raise an interesting point: are children’s reactions to spanking (even once they’ve grown into adults) affected by whether or not they’re in a “spanking culture”, or are the universal and independent? That is to say, are children who are spanked in an area/group/lifestyle that see spanking negatively more likely to be negatively impacted by memories of it than those in which spanking is considered normal?
Now I’m curious. They should do a study on that.
January 5, 2014 — 2:27 PM
terribleminds says:
Please, Andrea, write what you need to write. Thanks.
January 5, 2014 — 2:36 PM
Betsy says:
To the lady (Yourmom) who posted comments to the previous blog–the one with the 2-yr old who constantly throws things like little cars. Is there any chance that you can take him outside with a bunch of balls and play throwing games for an hour or so? How high can you throw it? Can you throw it at the tree? and so on. Maybe get him very special shiny bouncy balls or nerf balls that he can play with. They’re still annoying when they’re flying all over the house, but at least they don’t hurt.
When one of my nephews was that age, when he got really happy, he would hit people–hard. It was a form of spontaneous joyful self-expression, but you can’t just go around hitting people. The first time I encountered this, my sister glumly explained, “he hits people when he’s happy,” So I shouted “high five!” and held up my hand for him to hit. He loved this game, which solved an issue that no amount of scolding or timeouts would have addressed. I don’t know if I would have thought of it for one of my own kids (didn’t come up), because it’s harder to have that distance as a parent. But I guess what I’m saying, is maybe think about why he’s doing what he’s doing and if there is a way to redirect him. That doesn’t always work, but it is worth a try. Good luck to this awesome mom!
January 5, 2014 — 2:08 PM
k9mythbuster says:
It’s amazing how the same justifications used for spanking are used to justify physical punishment in animal training, especially dogs. Replace “spank child” with “shock/choke/jerk/pin/hang dog” and this could be a completely accurate article about dog behavior. Great follow-up, thank you.
January 5, 2014 — 2:19 PM
Wes says:
I never have, nor will I ever, hit, spank, beat, or smack my child. Ever. It is wrong and it will always be wrong. I would rather put a campfire out with my face than hurt my daughter. Putting us both in a time out works just fucking fine.
PS You fucking rock Wendig.
January 5, 2014 — 2:37 PM
John says:
Thanks for tackling a tough topic. What can I add?
Well, my father beat me with a belt when he felt I was out of line. Hated it. Hated it even more because I was not seeing the connection between what I had done and what was being done to me. It shattered my belief and trust in my father and that gap never closed. He’s deceased now. I felt the gap closed a bit during his waning years but I still felt great distance.
Secondly, we grew up next to a family where the father was extremely violent, especially to the youngest son, Charlie, who was a year or two younger than me. Charlie had a `mental problem’ as it was described to us and was on some form of medication. We, as kids do, taunted him at times and told him to go home and take his pill if he started acting out. Horrible, but that is what kids can do to each other.
Well, the family moved away and we never heard from them. Until one day I was reading the local paper where they listed out people on death row. And there was Charlie. I’ll spare the details as to why he landed there, but for me it was crystal clear how being a bit off, having a violent father and uncaring system can lead a kid like Charlie down a deep dark hole that one may never retreat from.
I dug in and researched a bit of the trial records for Charlie and part of his defense was the childhood abuse that he had suffered. Certainly does not justify what he had done but it was part of his emotional foundation. At times I’ve felt like writing to him in prison to express what I saw happen to him, but I never have.
And finally an example of great parenting that I witnessed. I was at a public garden where a father and his 2-3 year old were walking. The boy went into the gravel and starting kicking the gravel onto the pavement. The father went to the boy, crouched down to his level and told him eye-to-eye that the pavement was where people walked and that having the gravel on it could injure someone. The little boy proceeded to pickup each piece of gravel and place it back where it belonged. Bravo. That moment changed me and how I proceed as a parent. Forever.
Our children are our legacy. We are physical and emotional beings who can be pushed and stretched to limits. Taking out anger or frustration on a child is not the answer. We are capable of much more intelligent and emotional responses than that.
January 5, 2014 — 2:44 PM
Becca says:
“A lack of spanking does not equate to a lack of discipline,”
Could you suggest some methods of discipline that don’t involve physical or psychological punishment?
January 5, 2014 — 2:44 PM
terribleminds says:
I’m only one parent and what works for our child won’t work universally, and the Internet has a wealth of options I can’t cover here —
But we like time-outs. Taking away toys also works. Stern voices — not shouting, but gruff — gets his attention. We also find that just talking to him about things helps and even at 2.5 years he understands a lot more than you expect him to. We ask him to voice when he’s mad or frustrated and we try things like hugging him and holding him until he calms down. None of these things are a guaranteed fix 100% of the time, but we mix and match and try different things until we get a positive result.
January 5, 2014 — 2:47 PM
mckkenzie says:
Which underscores the point…parenting is WORK! Don’t have kids if you don’t want to put in the work 24/7. And the thing many people don’t realize is that what works for your oldest may not work for your next kid. You have to start from scratch with each one and get to know them. Get to know what they respond to. Some kids are more reasonable, some are stubborn. There are no easy answers, but approach it with love and a refusal to make the mistakes our parents made and remember that these are _people_ with _feelings_ and _rights_ and you’re half way there! 🙂
January 5, 2014 — 3:00 PM
Nikkiwi says:
Just a quick thing on the “Spare the rod and spoil the Child” thing.
I attended a parenting course where that phrase was brought up. The faciliator explained that when written down, there is no inflection, and it’s often read as “Spare the rod, and you will spoil the child” (i.e. if you don’t hit them, you’ll ruin them), He then suggested that it be read as “Spare the rod – AND Spoil the child” (i.e. Don’t hit them and give them heaps of love instead). You could almost hear pennies dropping around the room.
January 5, 2014 — 2:46 PM
Dave Perry says:
I didn’t get spanked often. I was the youngest and I saw the kind of thing that brought punishment and avoided getting caught doing those things as much as I could. But when I did get spanked, it was a bizarre mix of psychological and physical torture that I believe led directly to fist fights between my dad and brothers and to a spanking-free childhood for my daughter.
The story of my last two spankings is as follows:
I did something wrong (no idea what, which feels like a mark against the “spanking is for teaching” theory) and my mom threatened to spank me, then shifted into “wait until your father gets home” mode. I knew that my parents’ sense of justice didn’t allow for double punishment, so I goaded her into doing it by saying, “Good plan. You don’t hit hard enough for it to be a real punishment.” She spanked me herself. That’s what I learned: manipulation. When he got home, my mom, having gotten over her anger and realizing what I did, told my dad, who made me pick a switch from the willow tree so he could spank me for disrespecting my mother’s beatings.
My dad used to say children are never too big to spank. I never challenged that directly; I just made sure my parents never caught me again. But I know from close observation that my brothers were old enough to spank back by the time they were 16.
January 5, 2014 — 3:05 PM
Jamie Wyman says:
I can count on one hand the number of times I was spanked by my parents/grandparents. I was backhanded in the face once (and that’s the one I remember above all others…that one left an emotional scar). My grandma constantly used the threat of my grandfather’s belt or a “switch from the tree”. (Though I don’t remember her using it.) All of those things were based on fear and humiliation. Not respect. Not compassion or love. Those were rage made physical.
So, the one time I swatted my daughter on the butt–admittedly in a moment of frustration and anger–all of that came flooding into my mind and I started crying. I immediately hugged her and have refused to spank since.
I understand that for some it’s an easy choice, but really….there are better ways.
Thank you for writing this, Chuck.
January 5, 2014 — 3:10 PM
David says:
My mom spanked me – once, because I wandered off into the woods with my little sister looking for my dad, who’d gone hunting. I don’t actually remember it, but I do remember being forced to sit quietly on the couch until he came home afterwards.
I’m not pro-spanking, but your last post incensed me at the idea that my mother was a bad parent (not at all) or that I was the victim of abuse because of this incident. I didn’t post anything at the time because it would have been trollish. I hope this post wasn’t.
January 5, 2014 — 3:21 PM
mwebster76 says:
If I don’t want my dog to run into the street, I keep it on a leash. If you don’t keep your dog on a leash, you are setting it up to fail. If the dog gets run over, it’s your fault, not the dog’s. If you give a puppy the run of the house, it will chew on everything and pee everywhere. That’s what puppies do. You can’t fault a dog for behaving like a dog. I have never met a “bad” dog that didn’t also have an ignorant owner.
Not that I condone putting your kids on a leash or in a crate, but how about child proofing your home, setting consistent boundaries, and incorporating positive reinforcement methods designed to prevent your child from misbehaving in the first place? You don’t spank a child for putting a knife in an electrical outlet. You use outlet covers to remove the threat. When your child is old enough to fully understand what those outlets are for, then he or she will also understand that it’s not a good idea to put knives in them. They do not need to electrocute themselves, nor do they need you to spank them, to learn that lesson. They will eventually learn it when they are old enough to comprehend how electricity works. Then you can toss the outlet covers.
Discipline doesn’t always have to be negative. In fact, there have been plenty of studies that show positive reinforcement is far more effective long-term than negative reinforcement. So why are we all so quick to punish our children for behaving like children?
January 5, 2014 — 3:24 PM
Daina says:
This is the one topic that literally pounds at my heart. I told my mother she could not spank my children. She answered, “What if one of them runs into the street?” I replied, “I get to hit you for not keeping a close eye on my boys.” She replied, “Then you will end of in jail for assault.” She did not hear how dumb she sounded. My MIL hit my oldest once. She never saw my children alone again. Hitting is lazy parenting. Hitting humiliates the child and it is out right abuse.
January 5, 2014 — 3:32 PM